Mission Models paints - what am I missing here???

[jannie]

Hi guys

 

This question / recounting of my experience with Mission Models paints may possibly get me into trouble...

 

So, I  retired about a year ago and finally starting to clear the backlog on my "shelf of doom" (about 6 or 7 of 1/2 built models). Getting literally hit by a truck on my way home from my Retirement Party didn't exactly help me get back speedily into buildng models - No, I wasn't drunk, the truck driver "didn't see my weenie li'l Mazda" and proceeded to swerve right into me - destroying my car and causing me months of wrangling with the Insurance people (always happy to take your money but they just hate having to pay out, ended up having to sic some lawyers on them) and then followed by weeks of trying to find a replacement vehicle, even after doubling the Insurance payout from my savings.

 

My "models backlog" included the old venerable 1/32 Westland Lysander (in a RoG box, but originally Matchbox), and I have been rearing to get going on it again. Problem is that in my Old Age Innocence I went and bought a whole selection of Mission Models paints. I finished airbrushing the fuselage yesterday and wanted to start applying decals. This is now 24 hours later  (actually more I think) so I kinda would have expected the paint to be properly cured by now... HOWEVER, my usual surface preparation for decaling includes using Microscale's Micro Sol on the target area before laying down a decal. The moment the Micro Sol hit the surface where the tail flashes are supposed to go the paint itself dissolved way faster than any paint remover I have seen before. Crikey!! Is this my punishment for wanting to try something new and not sticking with my old trusty Model Master enamels? I read and re-read the instructions on the bottles - not a word about having to spray on a protective coating first, no warnings about decal softeners etc. Perhaps I should have taken a hint when I noticed that the paint in the cowling area, laid down more than a week ago, has almost no "mechanical" strength (resistance to abration etc). 

 

So... Basically I guess this Lysander is really cursed, I just don't have the energy to strip and re-paint (it's the canopy masking that is the real killer for me). Back to the Shelf of Doom! Did I miss something that was not stated on the bottle? How do you guys use it?? FWIW before I even started airbrushing  I cleaned the model using rubbing alcohol t nake sure no oils from my hands are left etc etc. The paint itself is manufactured in California, USA - I do hope that it is sole in the UK as well and that you have experience with it.

 

Any advice WELCOME!

 

Jannie in BC, Canada.

 

 

[Casey]

I'd say you are missing nothing - but the paint itself behaves like it is missing a binder. I had same experience too, their poly addon somewhat helped. Normally I'd keep away from it but since you already have a collection, I can try to find if there is any publicly available paint medium that is compatible with it and could make it work better. I still have couple of bottles of this stuff so I can perform some experiments. Meanwhile, do you use their poly additive?

[ColonelKrypton]

Very interesting.

 

I had the same experience with this paint, even water would soften and remove the "cured" paint and I followed their instructions, used their reducer, and their poly.

 

My emails to the company went unanswered.

 

Whether I had some bad paints, maybe were subject to freezing before I got them or ... I just gave up after much testing, binned the lot, and never looked back. 

 

I know there are others who speak highly of this line of paints so they must have come to terms on how to use them. 

 

cheers, Graham 

[jannie]

Hi Graham & Casey

 

I am baffled - "Poly addon"? Not a word about this on the bottle label - never used any 2-part paints ever on a plastic model ever since building my first plastic bag Airfix model back when General Electric was still a Private.... (2-part paints were common back in my R/C flying days - that avenue of pleasure has been closed for years now as Basil Fawlty would say). 

 

I am rather distraught about this - was really looking forward to finishing this kit. On top of the weird behaviour of the paint itself I would also add that the Dark Earth and RAF Dark Green appears much darker that what it should be. Darn, I should have been posting around on this website and asking before firing up my compressor.... You can "buy" positive reviewers who would do opinions on any and all items for a price, anyone familiar with CBC TV's Market Place here in Canada can attest to that.

Edited February 15 by jannie

[ColonelKrypton]

It is not really  two part paint. The add on poly just improves flow from your airbrush and makes a bit more durable coating. 

 

https://missionmodelsus.com/products/polyurethane-mix-additive-2oz#:~:text=The Poly greatly increases flow,a very light eggshell finish.

 

I and others suspect that mission models paint is made by Createx for MMP. At one time there was a link on the MMP web site that took you to the Createx website but it is no longer there. 

 

Createx is well regarded airbrush paint. I had no problem airbrushing the MMP product and it did dry or cure as expected but any application of water or decal setting solution and it would lift right off. I suspect that what was needed was a good and proper matt/semi-gloss/gloss clear coating before attempting to apply decals but I never got that far. 

 

cheers, Graham 

[jannie]

OK, I think what I will try and do is to repair the damaged paint on the vertical stabilizer (as well as some damage aorund the cowling - which I airbrushed a week or two ago, wanted to check if perhaps it just need some more curing time. Once it is repaired, I'll spray some kind of gloss coat, check how it reacts and if OK then decal it, followed by a semi-matt coat.

 

Logic says to just throw the model away as well as the paint - 4 bottles of various RAF coclours, say about CA$30 in value - for some that is one evening's beer money (except for the time spent....)

 

Thank you all.

 

[Casey]

1 hour ago, jannie said:

repair

Repairing models is a fun thing too, gives sense of extra achievement!

[Duncan B]

My collection of Mission Models paints did a great job.....of lining my waste bin! The worst paints I have ever tried and I did give them a decent run but found them to way too finicky for my liking. I want a paint I can thin, pour and spray as quickly as I can type that phrase, no playing at being a chemist! That's my personal opinion, others will have their own.

 

Duncan B

[PhantomBigStu]

Used a few, had some success with the raf dark green (despite it clearly not being raf dar green so no repeat buy there) and the RAF medium sea grey but also found it finicky as sometimes even when it appears dry it isn't and rubs off with further paint/varnish, this is even worse with their gloss sea blue (which is actually matt) which I had major problems with and even though Ive not thrown it out yet I think I will. Shame its so finicky as otherwise it brushes on really nice 

[Marvel]

Hi guys, interesting discussion! I would to buy MMP-110 for my two Zero's, but I am not very sure of this because I read not positives impressions about these paints. They seems to be too weak to resist for subsequents treatments as washings, weatherings, and so on. Also protective acrylics coating could damage the MMP paint layer.

Maybe is better to rest with classics paint as Gunze and/or Tamiya...or MRP....

 

M.

[dromia]

I just love the paint but it does need understanding and isn't really compatible with the chemical formulaic approach that dominates the hobby.

 

It is an organic water based paint and like all good water colours it will not stand re-wetting. The poly however turns it into a polyurethane paint if that is what you require.

 

For me however it is its water solubility that makes it such a favourite, it is its erasability, scratching, burnishing qualities that I find so useful in achieving to my mind realistic finishes that the slathering on rubbing of washes, panel lining etc fail to give. Although you can do this over Mission with oil based paints/enamels if that is your desire.

 

To maintain the paints integrity then other chemicals should be kept well away from Mission paint especially Isopropyl alcohol, wiping down with this stuff afore applying the paint is a no no, don't use IPA for cleaning your Mission paint airbrush, Createx 5168 airbrush cleaner works well with Mission product to no detrimental effect.

 

Only use Mission's own brand thinner or water to thin, especially if using the primer which needs Mission's thinner to activate it.

 

Mission likes heat so I dry off the paint with a hair dryer which makes it cure and grip stronger, however it will still be susceptible to water unless you use the poly but this hinders its erasability qualities.

 

Applying water slide transfers requires a bit more disciplined approach, the transfers are separated from the backing sheet as normal, do not place the wet backing sheet onto the model and slide of the transfer as this will flood the surface and make the paint run. Dry the top of the transfer and put in place as accurately as you can and then apply your solvent of choice, Mission does not like solvaset. I never varnish models as that just evens out the finish and you lose the varietal benefits of Mission. The only time I have ever had silvering was when I applied the transfers to a gloss varnish.

 

There is usually some room for fine tuning the transfer's final position when the solvent is first applied but slathering and flooding the transfer with solvent/water to position the transfer will dissolve the paint, it is water based water colour!!!

 

Mission is impervious to oil paint which is what I use for all my finishing weathering. I could never get off on any of current crop of water based paints being a confirmed enamels user but with Mission for me its qualities far outweigh its limitations and all paints have their limitations and foibles.

 

Mission is different and requires a learning curve like all new skills but once achieved it is a far superior paint to any other water based product on the market. You need to clear your mind of all the hobbies current finishing processes, understand that it is a water based paint, a bit like gouache and get you your chemical hierarchy in place from there. As in all new skills practice and experience makes perfect.

 

Mission don't do them selves any favours in the customer support and instructions for use department.

 

Each to his own but once I had sorted out Mission Paints needs then for me it is the perfect model paint.

 

 

[Marvel]

Hello Dromia, many thanks for your explanations. From what I gather, MMP is a kind of paint requesting a more professional and attentive approach. I am looking for a kind of paint more "friendly", IMHO and experience like Gunze, Tamyia or MRP.

I will orientate myself toward these kind of paints.

Tank you and good job!

 

M.

[Casey]

Hello @dromia

 

I remember talk that MMP is made by Createx, and in fact it can be similar product to Illustration Colors

 

From your behavior description, it fits pretty well to the SDS explanations from Illustration Colors:

 

Cleaning after Illustration Colors Cure

Quote

 

Colors should only be cleaned after the paint has thoroughly dried, best 72-hours after application. Delayed cross-linking feature means it takes longer for them to dry and not be affected by a cleaning prior to top-coating with a clear.

When mixed with 4050 or 4030, colors are safe to clean within 4 – 6 hours air drying after application.

 

Cleaning and decal application is very similar process.

 

4030 is water based Polyurethane clear, with following description:
 

Quote

 

Add 4030 or 4050 10% per volume to colors, then thin as needed with 4011 Reducer.

4030 is a lower viscosity compared to 4050, and colors mixed with it require less thinning with 4011 Reducer.

 

So I guess Poly Addon could be similar to either 4030 (or 4050)

 

It's a theory but it could be worth checking if they are intermixable I have some old unused MRP's and I can get a bottle of 4030 I guess.

Edited March 16 by Casey

[dromia]

Mission Model Paints are indeed made by Createx and their products do seem compatible.

 

I haven't tried their polyurethane addition with Mission as I rarely if ever add poly as it stops the very attributes that make Mission so attractive for me.

 

I do add Liquitex flow aid as it makes this creamy paint smooth as butter but still retaining the matt finish.

[Casey]

I did the following:

 

I tried Mission Models paint on a drawdown 'pure', with original Mission Models poly addon and with Createx 4030 (25% by volume)

 

I did a thin drawdown, 1 mil paint film using wire rod, to give the paint largest chance to dry. Then I let it dry for 24 hours. You can see how thin the paint had became after adding a poly addon.

 

I've then placed microsol red (on the left) and pure distilled water (on the right) for 10 seconds and then wiped it clean with a cotton bud (without pressure, just wipe it clean)

 

Here is Mission Models + original Poly addon on the left,  Mission Models + Createx 4030 on the right.

 

I did the new photo to on same light/angle to show that the difference between them is rather small - MM poly is a bit thicker. The color difference from the next photo is because the upper photo as done at incandesent light not daylight.

Previous photos are in spoiler, they suggest larger difference between MM poly and Createx due to light angle difference. Those are done in daylight

Spoiler

Mission Models + Mission Models Poly

Mission Models + Createx 4030 poly addon

 

 

And here is pure Mission Models without any addons

 

 

This photo was made in daylight.

 

I am sorry, but this is not an acrylic paint if after 24 hours I am able to wipe it clean when having a drop of water on it.

 

It looks like MM Poly addon or Createx 4030 is pretty much a requirement to make this product resilient (like a normal acrylic paint should), based on the test above.

Edited March 28 by Casey

[Tojo72]

I certainly can't dispute everyone's problems,but I've sprayed their Olive Drab,Dunkelgelb,and Tire Black,using thinner and poly additive.Its worked fine.I seal it with Alclad Aqua Gloss,put down decals, then Alclad Matte,and weathered.

I had no problem with one tone schemes,but I just couldn't get the right mix for free hand camo.

[dromia]

8 hours ago, Casey said:

I did the following:

 

I tried Mission Models paint on a drawdown 'pure', with original Mission Models poly addon and with Createx 4030 (25% by volume)

 

I did a thin drawdown, 1 mil paint film using wire rod, to give the paint largest chance to dry. Then I let it dry for 24 hours. You can see how thin the paint had became after adding a poly addon.

 

I've then placed microsol red (on the left) and pure distilled water (on the right) for 10 seconds and then wiped it clean with a cotton bud (without pressure, just wipe it clean)

 

Here is Mission Models + original Poly addon on the left,  Mission Models + Createx 4030 on the right.

 

I did the new photo to on same light/angle to show that the difference between them is rather small - MM poly is a bit thicker. The color difference from the next photo is because the upper photo as done at incandesent light not daylight.

Previous photos are in spoiler, they suggest larger difference between MM poly and Createx due to light angle difference. Those are done in daylight

  Reveal hidden contents

Mission Models + Mission Models Poly

Mission Models + Createx 4030 poly addon

 

 

And here is pure Mission Models without any addons

 

 

This photo was made in daylight.

 

I am sorry, but this is not an acrylic paint if after 24 hours I am able to wipe it clean when having a drop of water on it.

 

It looks like MM Poly addon or Createx 4030 is pretty much a requirement to make this product resilient (like a normal acrylic paint should), based on the test above.

"It is an organic water based paint and like all good water colours it will not stand re-wetting. The poly however turns it into a polyurethane paint if that is what you require."

[Casey]

58 minutes ago, dromia said:

it will not stand re-wetting

From their FAQ, washes section.

 

"No need for a clear barrier coat. (...) MMP paints will accept all types of washes with out damage to the paint. "

 

If it can't stand distilled water, it won't survive a wash made from it.

 

I did suspect it may fall apart under decal softener but I did not expect it to flow down under a water droplet based on their own FAQ. It behaves like gum arabic watercolor. If it is the case, it should be clearly marketed as such.

Edited March 28 by Casey

[dromia]

I have never said it would, it is a water colour and will not stand re-wetting and will run, wipe off if aqueous liquids are applied over it. IPA is real killer on it.

 

Oil paints, enamels are fine for washes, rendering etc.

 

As I have already said Mission's customer care and website do them and us no favours. Not the only paint manufacturer to fall into this category.

 

With the poly additive however the paint then becomes more impervious to aqueous liquids, perhaps this is what they mean?

 

I have nothing to do with Mission but once I understood there paints qualities and saw it for what it is, an organic water based paint sans poly additive, then managing its use became quiet simple.

 

I have never regarded Mission as an "acrylic" whatever that may mean in the current modelling lexicon.

[PhantomBigStu]

Never noticed it was organic now my experience makes sense. Haven't got thart much left so I might just dispose of them now

[Casey]

9 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Never noticed it was organic

A lot of pigments are organic nowadays, that's not the experience factor there.

 

I have couple of suspicions about what happens there, but the symptoms are that even after 48h any moisture will turn this product back into the the original fluid paint state, so it effectively behaves like a watercolor paint.

 

This can be a conscious decision of making the paint into two components (similar to epoxy resins which start to cure only after you mix them both), but as @dromia mentioned, the vendor is not giving itself a good favor by explaining what is going on with it. It can also mislead people to assume that acrylic paints will stripped down from their models by simply angrily looking at them

[dromia]

In approaching Mission paints think gouache.

 

If I want a robust surface for lathering washes and universal panel lining on then I use my trusty enamels.

 

I am no fan of the current crop of water based "acrylic" model paints as I find them all fragile and finicky to apply, I do find Mission an exceptionally easy paint to spray. Mission being the most water soluble of them all when used without the poly, is this very quality that allows finishes no other model paint can come near achieving so it has a place on my bench, the only water based model paint I use.

[Phil.P]

I'm after a low odour painting experience - it's not so much the painting, AK Real Color doesn't smell too bad and I have a large spray booth, its the cleaning up afterwards with lacquer thinners that's the killer for me. I really wanted Mission Model paints to work and I've given them a fair try; I've studied their online instructions and FAQs and looked at lots of YouTube videos but I can't get it to adhere consistently and what irks me is that the MM website says that if you follow the procedure faithfully you'll have a water based paint that goes down like a lacquer and is resilient. Well like many here, that's not my experience. Having the clear coat breached by a little water when decaling isn't good enough and not what they advertise.

 

Can anyone recommend one of the other water based acrylics (I know most of the others out there are not pure water based) that has a good range of aircraft colours (particularly RAF), and that goes down well?

Edited March 29 by Phil.P

[Casey]

On 3/29/2024 at 6:11 AM, Phil.P said:

Can anyone recommend one of the other water based acrylics (I know most of the others out there are not pure water based) that has a good range of aircraft colours (particularly RAF), and that goes down well?

I have tested the following:

 

Humbrol Acrylics - not bad range, sometimes very questionable color matches, very bad paint quality on Gen 1, Gen 2 is vulnerable for freezing and if frozen turns into a complete disaster. I had bad experience with it in airbrush.

Revell Aqua - great for brush painting and airbrushing if you use their thinner. It is very quickly drying paint and some people have issues with its longevity after opening. The color matches are pretty accurate when they are named as such,  but the color range is limited. You can see my review here:

Vallejo Air - They work with brushing too. This is a very good paint, there is a problem with a person who writes color labels, since they quite often dont correspond to the color the paint has. I've went through their whole range and you can see the data in post linked below. This is a great product otherwise.

AK Acrylics - they are pretty good paint for brushing and airbrushing, but suffer same issue as Vallejo Air - their color matches are not good and sometimes plain wrong, I am still working on getting through their whole range with measurements but so far it was disappointing.

 

I also went outside of modellers brands and into a artist paints category. That is the best choice if you need near-perfect color matches, infinite color range and paint of really good quality. The downside is - you need to mix your own colors. I've published recipes around for Liquitex Basic Fluid and Golden Fluid Acrylics. The Golden ones have much higher pigment concentration but are more expensive. Liquitex Basic Fluid are having unbeatable price - they sell for 5.99$ for 118ml bottle. That is 100ml more than any vallejo air bottle which is 3.30$ nowadays.

 

My personal choice is:

• If I am doing model "As vendor intended" and I follow the manual religiously, that means use their colors selections or mixes wherever it will lead me I do it with Revel more often than not, but also with Tamiyas. Using those paints is more fiddly process than dropper bottles but I do enjoy it sometimes.
• If I want a quick convenience I pick a closest match from Vallejo Air range, having a database (like the one I shared) lets me do it easily - I just do a LAB color match for given target color and pick the closest one.
• If I need a perfect color match (or I cant get the convenience option), I mix my own. I did a few of GB builds using only those artist paints. I have a way to calculate the mixes up front, so I can get a set of needed colors within hour by just mixing them into empty dropper bottles and making my own paint set, in time I built a collection of most used colors like ANA, MAP or RLM's. Sometimes I treat this step as a part of a build similar in fun to adding resin details for your kit. If you ever want to go this route and need mixes for certain colors or set, send me a PM.

 

Edited April 9 by Casey

[Pat C]

I found using the poly made them marginally more robust , at the expense of totally gumming up my airbrush. The bin beckoned.