Were Me109s primed before being camouflaged?

[Graham Boak]

It doesn't need the introduction of another, totally unsupported,, assumption into the debate.  Occam's Razor.

 

Can we not bey back to the use of primer?

[GiampieroSilvestri]

In his book on page 268 Michael Ullmann describes a blue Umtarnfarbe Fliegwerkstoff 7126.76.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

In his book on page 268 Michael Ullmann describes a blue Umtarnfarbe Fliegwerkstoff 7126.76.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

to replace 7125.65 from August 15th 1944 on, when changing from permanent night camo (RLM 22) to permanent day camo using a brush.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

16 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said:

to replace 7125.65 from August 15th 1944 on, when changing from permanent night camo (RLM 22) to permanent day camo using a brush.

Correct and for use on the field.

I did not say that it is the colour on the picture but it is a blue not described in the RLM colour list.

Another Rätsel of Luftwaffe colours.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[tempestfan]

3 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Correct and for use on the field.

I did not say that it is the colour on the picture but it is a blue not described in the RLM colour list.

Another Rätsel of Luftwaffe colours.🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

I'd take 7125.65 and 7125.76, the latter replacing the former, to be a special purpose paint in 65 and 76 tones, respectively? 

[Jochen Barett]

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

I'd take 7125.65 and 7125.76, the latter replacing the former, to be a special purpose paint in 65 and 76 tones, respectively? 

Yes. (7126.76 according to the book)

 

To repaint "permanent" black RLM 22 undersides with "permanent" daytime RLM 76 in the field (instead of using distemper 76 over the permanent 22).

[RAF4EVER]

If you were not there at the time of priming/painting, and not involved in the process, you are not really qualified and you cannot say who is right or wrong.😈

Edited February 2 by RAF4EVER

[Graham Boak]

I wasn't there at the  Battle of Trafalgar, but I know who won.

 

German paint of the period did not require a primer.  If you want more, German since Hitler was in severe shortage of several key commodities, and were always looking for alternatives or ways of doing without.  I would recommend at least one good book on the subject, but as the author wasn't there ...

 

The distemper black and blue was available from the Battle of Britain (at least the black was) and the combination was in use on bombers in a "half and half" scheme where the engines below the wing, and the wing behind and to the side of the engines were painted in permanent black, with the rest of the aircraft underside in blue.  Distemper was then applied to the appropriate colour for day or night operations.  It is usually seen on He.111s (ju.88s being so filthy from engine exhaust it is difficult to tell)  However, so few Bf.019s were used in night operations and painted black, it would have been inane to adopt this system on this type.  The different shade of blue are just different film/lighting/printing, particularly the latter, rather than anything other than standard.

 

My newspaper has just come through the door.  Of course, I wasn't there when it was printed.  Nothing actually exists beyond the mind of the individual, you know.  Supposedly a perfectly acceptable philosophical outlook.  

[SafetyDad]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

German paint of the period did not require a primer.  If you want more, German since Hitler was in severe shortage of several key commodities, and were always looking for alternatives or ways of doing without.  I would recommend at least one good book on the subject, but as the author wasn't there ...

 

 

 

As far as I am aware late war colours only (80 onwards) were formulated to be able to be applied without primer. Primer was used with earlier colours, and even, on occasion, with the later colours. The NASM Me 262 has an unidentified light grey along the lower sides of the fuselage, between the 76 undersurfaces and the green uppers, that is believed to be a primer.  Photos posted earlier in this thread show primer in use at the factory for 109s. Photos from the Erla repair facility show Bf 109s painted in an overall light colour before final finishing. Studying the photographic evidence, plus examination of recovered pieces, supports the use of primer.

 

Paint application probably varied between factory facilities and subcontractors. Bf 109 tails for example were delivered ready painted. The most convincing evidence of unprimed aircraft are the late war jets, such as the Me 262 and He 162, some of which were without any paint. Remember the manufacturing facilities for 262s could be outside in a forest, or underground. Later Me 262s were delivered without primer, and the finishing paste used for joint sealing can be seen clearly through the paint in contemporary photographs. I'm not aware of many (if indeed any) photos of late war Bf 109s where painting without primer allows underlying filler paste to be made out. 

 

 

SD

 

 

[Graham Boak]

I've not seen any reference to the late war colours being any different to the wartime standard in respect of the need for primer.  I've gone back to Ullmann and Merrick/Kiroff, and found several references being made to the prewar three-coat system (primer, intermediate and topcoat) being replaced by the single coat paint group 7122.  In his note to the supplement in the Classic work Kiroff specifically says that the paints in group 7122 had a much greater opacity, so the intermediate paint was not required.  Because of the good adhesion, even on light metals, primers were not necessary.  This paint group was introduced in 1938.

 

There does seem to have been a requirement in the earlier standard for a specific use of the primer when dealing with specific parts of the aircraft structure, such as seams, and mention is made of a green primer being used by Messerschmitt where major parts come together,  I presume this is present as an example of the practice, rather than being specific to the one manufacturer.   These aside, and perhaps maritime aircraft should also be excepted, there would seem to be no reason to assume the presence of primer on Luftwaffe aircraft built during the war.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

This is from page 32 of the book by Michael Ullmann.Please translate it with the known pages.

"Aufgrund der technologischen überlegenheit der Ikarol Einschicht Schutzanstriche für Leichtmetall,dem Hauptbaustoff von Flugzeugen,hatte dieser Schutzanstrich bis 1939 alle anderen vom Markt verdrängt."

Put simply it says that from 1939 only Ikarol one coat paints were used to paint Luftwaffe aircraft.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Werdna]

4 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Aufgrund der technologischen überlegenheit der Ikarol Einschicht Schutzanstriche für Leichtmetall,dem Hauptbaustoff von Flugzeugen,hatte dieser Schutzanstrich bis 1939 alle anderen vom Markt verdrängt

 

Online translator suggests the following:

 

"Due to the technological superiority of the Ikarol single-layer protective coatings for light metal, the main construction material for aircraft, this protective coating had displaced all others from the market by 1939"

[Graham Boak]

Market?  The RLM was the only customer, and it had ruled that it would only buy paint to this one standard.  Presumably licence agreement were rapidly reached... or, of course, it was insisted that the processes were made available to other producers anyway.

[SafetyDad]

This gets more complicated the more I look. It's certainly not as simple as 'primer wasn't used with Ikarol paints'.

 

I too have consulted Merrick and Kiroff, and they seem to set out the following timescale.

 

 

Until 1943 aircraft were primed in RLM 02 all over

 

 

this then shifted towards a speedier and more efficient system, where RLM 76 was used as an initial coat for the airframe, with the upper colours applied over this

 

 

Finally, bare metal undersides, and indeed primerless uppersurfaces are experimented with, and appear in small batches.

 

Examination of preserved airframes provides us with further evidence - in this case from the Australian BF 109G, where RLM 02 is the first colour applied to the bare metal on the port wing uppersurfaces. These wings were recycled from earlier aircraft, so this makes sense on this relatively late-war Bf 109G

 

 

All from Merrick and Kirchoff Vol 1

 

 

and posted for the purpose of discussion.

 

The authors also describes in detail the differing approaches taken by differing manufacturers and subcontractors. 

 

So we seem to have a gradual move from fully primed at the start of the War, to partially primed from early 1943, and then finally inconsistency and confusion at war's end. Some aircraft, such as the He 219 and late war jets, appear to have been unprimed.  At least that's what the evidence that I can find (including reputable analysis of preserved airframes) appears to show.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

1 hour ago, SafetyDad said:

This gets more complicated the more I look. It's certainly not as simple as 'primer wasn't used with Ikarol paints'.

 

I too have consulted Merrick and Kiroff, and they seem to set out the following timescale.

 

 

Until 1943 aircraft were primed in RLM 02 all over

 

 

this then shifted towards a speedier and more efficient system, where RLM 76 was used as an initial coat for the airframe, with the upper colours applied over this

 

 

Finally, bare metal undersides, and indeed primerless uppersurfaces are experimented with, and appear in small batches.

 

Examination of preserved airframes provides us with further evidence - in this case from the Australian BF 109G, where RLM 02 is the first colour applied to the bare metal on the port wing uppersurfaces. These wings were recycled from earlier aircraft, so this makes sense on this relatively late-war Bf 109G

 

 

All from Merrick and Kirchoff Vol 1

 

 

and posted for the purpose of discussion.

 

The authors also describes in detail the differing approaches taken by differing manufacturers and subcontractors. 

 

So we seem to have a gradual move from fully primed at the start of the War, to partially primed from early 1943, and then finally inconsistency and confusion at war's end. Some aircraft, such as the He 219 and late war jets, appear to have been unprimed.  At least that's what the evidence that I can find (including reputable analysis of preserved airframes) appears to show.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

Two points:

1.Ikarol colours were used because with them the use of primer was no longer needed so what would be the reason to still prime the aircraft?In Germany there is a saying "doppelt hält besser" but it is unlikely that the manufacturers thought about this to make the paint stick better to the aircraft.

2.The application of the camouflage certainly did not vary from manufacturer to manufacturer like said in the Merrick book as even the direction in which the colours had to be applied to the aircraft by brush (and the type of brushes) on the field was prescribed by RLM regulations.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Mark Proulx]

There is also an extensive discussion about this subject in Jerry Crandalls Dora Vol 2 book. 

 

He personally visited and interviewed Dr. Pomper, head of Warnecke and Bohm, the German paint manufacturer. Included within the book are all the paint formulas for their Ikarol based paints, patented in 1942 (mostly).  This also lead to the paint chips that EE sold, which included a CofA signed by Warnecke & Bohm. 

 

The issue with the earlier colors was their lack of adhesion to a metal surface, especially aluminum. To address that problem Warnecke & Bohm used an artificial resin polymer with their formulation which meant that primer was no longer required. This also reduced labor time and aircraft weight.

 

HTH

 

Mark Proulx

[Phantome]

On 2/2/2024 at 4:44 AM, Werdna said:

 

The trouble with that proposition is that there is evidence of 'RLM84' (or however you want to refer to it) being used as early as 1941, notionally before any 'shortages' were experienced.  Link to a previous recent thread here... 

 

 

A completely different color though, which only recently was "discovered" what it actually looked like (IIRC a maritime color).

 

EDIT: Confusing this with RLM 83 which indeed turned out to be something completely different that what was believed for a long time.

Edited February 4 by Phantome

[SafetyDad]

@Mark Proulx has reminded me about the source of my original statement about late war paints not needing primer. Crandall's books of course. I had forgotten the source. Thanks Mark!

 

SD

[Werdna]

1 hour ago, Phantome said:

A completely different color though, which only recently was "discovered" what it actually looked like (IIRC a maritime color).

 

You may be right, I don't know  - but with several different shades of RLM76 already documented - and given that the official designation of the colour in question seems as yet unknown -  who is to say that it definitely was a 'completely different' colour?

 

[GiampieroSilvestri]

A internet search showed that the first aircraft in the picture,number 32069 is a Messerschmitt Bf 109 G-6 werknummer 410672.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[tempestfan]

2 hours ago, Phantome said:

 

A completely different color though, which only recently was "discovered" what it actually looked like (IIRC a maritime color).

May you be confusing this with 83, I wonder (Dark Blue)?

 

If there was a paint formula obviating the need for primer (early on), it would have made a lot of sense to have all paint by all manufacturers to this standard, give or take any patents. The planners were well aware of potential and actual raw material shortages, in particular anything petroleum-based. 
Still, I neither see 02 or 76 on the fuselages upthread, but that may be my personal perception.

[Phantome]

4 hours ago, tempestfan said:

May you be confusing this with 83, I wonder (Dark Blue)?

 

If there was a paint formula obviating the need for primer (early on), it would have made a lot of sense to have all paint by all manufacturers to this standard, give or take any patents. The planners were well aware of potential and actual raw material shortages, in particular anything petroleum-based. 
Still, I neither see 02 or 76 on the fuselages upthread, but that may be my personal perception.

 

You're absolutely right, got them confused.

[Peter Roberts]

11 hours ago, Mark Proulx said:

There is also an extensive discussion about this subject in Jerry Crandalls Dora Vol 2 book. 

 

He personally visited and interviewed Dr. Pomper, head of Warnecke and Bohm, the German paint manufacturer. Included within the book are all the paint formulas for their Ikarol based paints, patented in 1942 (mostly).  

 

 

 

If most of the Ikarol paints weren’t patented until 1942, does this then fit with Merrick and Kiroff finding that primer was no longer used from early 1943, given the need to get manufacturing going and supply chains resourced?

 

Edit - would there also have been the need for testing and approval before their use?

Edited February 4 by Peter Roberts

[Graham Boak]

However, it clashes somewhat with Kiroff's statement that it was introduced in 1938.  It also makes nonsense of his comment on why some people think there were two different versions of 65  (i.e. with or without primer underneath).  Unless the suggestion is that this different version only appeared in 1943, by which time the fighters were in 76 anyway.  I don't think that it is the suggestion.

 

As for the photo taken on an unknown film inside a factory with wartime lighting of unknown spectrum, I think it makes more sense that this is the recorded 76 than any other unknown and plucked from the stratosphere light blue.  Bring on some evidence of a different colour and there could be a sensible discussion.  Remember that there are photos of Bf.109F in purple camouflage.  I once nearly made a model that way, but fortunately someone commented that this was a known effect of aging wartime German film.  Ah, but perhaps I should have made that model, as there was the evidence in a colour photo.  And no, it wasn't 81 Brown-violet.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

7 hours ago, Peter Roberts said:

 

If most of the Ikarol paints weren’t patented until 1942, does this then fit with Merrick and Kiroff finding that primer was no longer used from early 1943, given the need to get manufacturing going and supply chains resourced?

 

Edit - would there also have been the need for testing and approval before their use?

In Germany nothing is used without state approval.Ikarol colours were used exclusively from 1939 onwards.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero