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Phantome

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About Phantome

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    Isle of Dawgs
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    Planes and pale ale

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  1. The payment of license fees is all the more egregious when you consider that 1) These planes were designed with taxpayer money 2) These planes were built with taxpayer money. That's modern hypercapitalism for ya. I'm surprised BAE Systems hasn't joined in on the extortion scheme. Can't wait to build my first BAE Systems Spitfire Mk I....
  2. I agree. Strange since lately Italeri has been quite generous with stencils but they did a piddle poor job with this kit. Hopefully they'll correct their mistake if they release a FGR2
  3. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant LAdmG as an interior (wheel well, landing gear, etc) as opposed to a cockpit color. There is definitely no evidence of LAdmG ever used as a cockpit color As for the Harrier II, I suspected as such! It definitely breaks with the GR1/GR3 in that even the RAF versions has white interiors and landing gear It is indeed unfortunate that I did not come across any documentation that confirmed LAdmG rather than say, LAG or LG for undersides. Indeed LG does have a blue-greenish hue so I was perhaps exaggerating a bit when I said there is no way it couldn't be. I'm more than happy to change my conclusions if anyone comes up with conclusive, definitive evidence. From the modeler's perspective, the unfortunate thing is that neither color is widely available. I am planning to possibly add a Buccaneer section later on, I deliberately did not include short-lived schemes that were only seen on one aircraft. I mean... Squirrel Grey Thanks for the comments, if you do ever come across any documentation to definitely sort out these debate, do send it my way
  4. You have three good choices: AKAN, MRP and AK Real Colors. I have used AKAN before. I think the grey is a bit too dark but the green-grey was absolutely spot on (and this is a tricky color to get right). I have the AK colors and they look right in the bottle. They grey looks lighter than AKAN's, though AK paints always tend to look lighter in the bottle. I'll take the above poster's word on MRP, as I have not used them nor do I own them.
  5. Hello Britmodeller, Continuing my series of color and paint guides, here's the long-awaited RAF post-war guide featuring all major RAF color schemes from the end of WW2 until today. I actually finished this weeks ago but kept forgetting to post it, but no more delays! A few notes: 1) Unlike the WW2 guide, it is unfortunate that there is no authoritative single reference for post-war RAF colors. This means all the info has been taken from disparate sources including this forum, Paul Lucas articles, and visual evidence (mostly from the excellent Air Britain photo archive). Where possible I have tried to add specific references to camouflage guidelines but in many cases this has not been possible. And especially for everything post-1970s it has been almost entirely visual evidence. 2) I realized there was a ton of contradictory evidence on interior and cockpit colors. It has been quite enlightening to actually do research on this and realize that there's a lot of erroneous information out there on forums like this that is given as authoritative despite giving no backing evidence. Unlike the USAF, RAF interior colors are VERY complicated as there is no apparent standard even though it's the same 4-5 colors used throughout. I am more than happy to be corrected on this but some of the main things that I found from looking at countless aircraft walkarounds that seems to contradict the conventional wisdom: - Dark Admiralty Gray (the most common RAF cockpit color from the Lightning onward) is NOTHING like FS 36231 which is often given as an equivalent. DAG is much darker and has a clear blue tint to it. I would not recommend using FS 36231 as an equivalent at all if you are even remotely concerned about color accuracy. It doesn't help that sites like e-Paint show DAG and 36231 as very similar. Although I do not have a copy of BS 381C, I did pick up the Munsell values from an Indian Standards document (there's a lot of overlap in British and Indian colors, unsurprisingly) and these are far closer to what is seen on photos. (Edit: there might be confusion with Dark Camouflage Grey which is in fact, nearly identical to FS 36231 but this is not an interior color) - There is widespread use of Light Admiralty Grey as an interior color from the 1960s onward. This is a light blue-grey very similar to RLM 76. This has often confused for a 'light grey' and I have seen many references to Light Aircraft Grey 627 and Light Grey BS 631 yet I have very little reason to think these have even been used for this purpose (LAG on some late Hunters after they switched from silver undersides). Neither 627 or 631 by any standard of the imagination have a blue hue in them which is obvious on all RAF 'light grey' interiors. RAF Tornados also seem to use Light Admiralty Grey though not Luftwaffe ones which use a more neutral light grey which I suspect is Lichtgrau 7035 (also used on both RAF and Lw Typhoons). Interestingly, LAG is also very similar to the ubiquitous Soviet/Russian Blue-Grey used for interiors. - There has also been some confusion over the correct cockpit color on RAF Tornados: it appears both FS 36231 AND Dark Admiralty Grey are used. There is an excellent walkaround on this forum posted by Julien that shows clear evidence of DAG. There are plenty of other ones that show FS 36231. I repeat: these two colors look nothing alike and they are impossible to confuse. There also does not appear to be any pattern on when either of the two are used, as both are seen on GR.1s, GR.4s, and F.3s. This was quite a shocker to me as I had assumed that Tornados, like most multi-national designs used FS 36231. Interestingly, the Harrier II uses FS 36231, not DAG like first gen Harriers. - The one aircraft that does have a very confusing cockpit color is the Nimrod (at least some of them), and I do think it is possibly BS 627. Anyone with authoritative info is more than welcome to chip in on this debate! Anyway, I hope this is useful and by all means, any corrections are most welcome! Finally, a bit thank you to the BM community in general, as there was a lot of useful info from some of you in the couple of threads that I started in preparation for this. I intend to pop over to Kew at some point in the near future now that I'm back in London and hopefully get definitive info on AMOs and such as there are still a lot of loose threads particularly in that 1945-1955 period when there were tons of changes. http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rafmod
  6. Please do an E! I was actually expecting Italeri to do a Fujimi A-4 repop but looks like Hobby 2000 beat them to it. Not sure who is in Hobby 2000's marketing team but they really have a good eye for kits that deserve reissues.
  7. Ok, I've edited the first post in order to streamline it and make the gaps in knowledge more obvious. I'm particularly keen on the 1947-53 AMOs so if anyone else has info on these that would be great. Also added mention of a couple of other AMOs from 1959-60 though I'm not sure they add much. Will add links/sources to the other ones once I have time so it's more authoritative.
  8. 9 year bump... does anyone who downloaded that AP119A-0601 zip file still have it and would they be willing to share? (link doesn't work anymore, unsurprisingly) Thanks!
  9. Another questions while we're at it: what was the color specified as "black" in the post-war era for interiors? Was this just some generic black, was it matched to BS 4800 (00E53) or was Night BS 642 still in use? I have seen a scanned Phantom paint specification and all fuselage colors are match to a BS color except white and black so I assume Night was not in use by then.... I assume the paint was meant as an exterior finish for night aircraft, not as an interior color
  10. Methinks I will need to pay a visit to Kew in February to sort everything out. But on the plus side, we're getting somewhere...
  11. Brilliant stuff @Giorgio N! The "mystery" behind the Vampires over the canal was also because I assumed they were different variants: the ones not painted in HSS appear to have different canopies. Am I wrong? The IWM page mentions that they are all FB.9s and they do have the same squadron markings so it makes sense. I know very little about Vampires (except the blood-sucking type ) so I am wondering if they got different canopies. Giorgio, if you have information available, could you clear up the distinction between day fighter, long range and short range? It seems from an earlier post of yours on a different thread you give two different camo schemes for each but does this mean overall HSS finishes were abandoned as early as 1951?
  12. I should add, if anyone has a copy of these orders in PDF and wishes to share, I would be most grateful
  13. Hello RAF post-war experts, I am doing ongoing research for my color and camouflage guides and am close to finishing the modern RAF page but I feel I am flying blind because I do not have the relevant Air Ministry Orders, particularly for the early post-war period (up to the 1950s) when there were tons of different schemes. I have manged to get a hold of a small number of Paul Lucas articles that make mention of various AMOs during this period and some Warpaint books, but sadly, they are only discussed in reference to the topic in question. I have also seen some comments here on BM where these AMOs are mentioned (notably by @Giorgio N ). Anyway, here is a summary of what I think I know from what I have read and everything is speculative and possibly contradictory or outright wrong I will be editing this as more concrete evidence is supplied. Latest update: 1/25/20 Immediate post-war: Wartime standards still in use but lots of ad hoc overseas schemes and increasing use of aluminium finishes - From 31 March 1945, order for all (day?) fighters to be in aluminium finish. Clearly not followed strictly to the letter as there are lots of post-war Spitfires that were still left in wartime camo. - 19 October 1945 Camouflage conference sets guidelines for camouflage policy in the next 5 years. - Bombers: Tiger Force colors of White over Night, pattern 1 or left in wartime Dark Earth/Dark Green over Night, pattern 2. - Some Egypt-based Spitfire F.18s in 1949 finished in Dark Earth/Light Slate Grey over Medium Sea Grey, pattern 1 AMO A.413/47 (15/May/47): Formalized the decisions taken during a 19 Oct 1945 camouflage conference - Day Fighters: Aluminium finish - Night Fighters: Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, mid-fuselage demarcation (same as the late wartime scheme) - Night Bombers: Medium Sea Grey over Night, pattern 2 - Day Bombers: Medium Sea Grey overall (??? seen on some Lancasters) - Maritime Patrol: Medium Sea Grey over White (??? not sure if specified in this document but Shackletons in this scheme begin to appear and some Lancaster GRs too) BS 381C:1948 Colours for Specific Purposes (1/1/1948): 91 colors, adds the three-digit nomenclature. Most MAP wartime colors still separate April 1949: High-Speed Silver introduced, specified to DTD 772 standard. First applied on late Meteor F.4s AMO A.217/51 (19/Apr/1951): Specified more specific schemes based on role, altitude, speed of aircraft - Day fighters: Aluminium finish (High-Speed Silver in practice since 1949) - Day fighters, short range: Light Slate Grey/Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue, pattern 2 - Day fighters, long range: ??? - Night fighters: Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey, mid-fuselage demarcation - High Altitude Night Bombers: Medium Sea Grey over Night, pattern 2 (??? not sure if this scheme is named as such, but assumed for the 'heavies'?) - Medium Altitude Night Bombers: Medium Sea Grey over Night, pattern 2 (seen on 617 Sqn Canberras) - High Altitude Day Bombers: Light Slate Grey/Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue, pattern 2 (seen on Canberras) - Medium Altitude Day Bombers: ??? (does this exist?) - High Altitude Photo-recon: Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue - Medium Altitude Photo-recon: ??? (does this exist? aluminium perhaps?) AMO A.658/52 (18/Dec/1952): Specified overseas schemes, cancelled earlier LSG/MSG over PRUB scheme Day fighters: High-Speed Silver officially mentioned for the first time (but in use since 1949) - Overseas (Germany, MEAF, FEAF): Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green over PRU Blue - High Altitude Day Bombers: High-Speed Silver - AMO A.228/53 (3/Sep/1953): Introduces camouflage on former overall silver aircraft UK fighters: Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green over HS Silver Tactical aircraft (does this mean Tactical AFs or just non-fighters?): Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green over PRU Blue 1955?: Maritime Patrol: overall Dark Sea Grey or White over Dark Sea Grey 1957?: Introduction of Anti-Flash White on bombers AMO A.285/59 (?/?/1959): Mentions white for medium bombers, light bombers (except Canberra) in MEAF, FEAF Sources: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234925037-anti-flash-aircraft/&do=findComment&comment=1108511 AMO A.239/60 (23/11/1960): Specifies 4 basic color schemes - White: Medium Bombers (i.e. V-Bombers), Long Range Photo-Recon - Silver: ??? - Camouflage: ??? - Grey: ??? Sources: Paul Lucas 'The Lost Tomorrows of an Eagle' (MAM Apr 2006) 1964?: Introduction of camo on bombers (Medium Sea Grey/Dark Green over Anti-Flash White) BS 381C:1964 Colours for Specific Purposes (1/1/1964): 102 Colors, adds all MAP wartime colors that were previously not in BS 381C (most). DCI T.346/65 (4/Aug/1965): All fighter/ground attack, fighter-recon aircraft to have Light Aircraft Grey (originally written just 'light grey') undersides (so Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green over Light Aircraft Grey) Sources: Paul Lucas ' Some other random questions: - When "Tactical air forces" are referenced, does this include RAF Germany? I have seen decal descriptions of Germany-based Sabres that have PRU Blue undersides. - This photo makes me want to blow my head off WHY ARE THEY DIFFERENT WHY?!!??!?!!?!: https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205024152 - Was there a later photo-recon scheme specified afterwards? Or were many Meteors just finished in fighter camo regardless of role? Many thanks!
  14. If it's anti-flash white, then it's the same color. I thought the same as you because there's some pixel blurring in smaller pictures but you'll realize it's the same if you find a high-res photo and use a color picker on the white of the roundels and the nearest white on the fuselage in a similar lighting position. The reason roundel whites look whiter at first glance is because they are sandwiched between two darker colors. It's the same reason Light Aircraft Grey looks almost white on aircraft with DSG/DG topsides whereas it looks darker next to Barley Grey or Hemp topsides. In short: it's an optical illusion From what I understand, Vulcans (and Victors?) eventually adopted Light Aircraft Grey undersides (before they went wrap-around in the 80s) but from what I can tell this change happened only until around the mid-70s, much later than fighters. Would be great if anyone could back this up or refute with more concrete evidence as this is mere speculation on my part.
  15. Recent update: FLEET AIR ARM ADDED Like the USN page, this one includes both WW2 and post-war schemes as well as helicopters (which I knew absolutely zero about so was rather fun to research) http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_rnfaa Sadly I do not have any decent written references for Admiralty orders or things of the sort to pinpont exact dates in which new schemes were introduced. If anyone can point me in the right direction, that would be great. And as usual, any glaring errors or controversies (thankfully no Tropical Land Scheme here :P), do let me know!
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