Dave Slowbuild Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I recently received the Airfix 1/72 Curtiss Hawk 81-A-2 kit as a gift, but I'm not taken by the Flying Tigers example as boxed. I'd prefer to go for this scheme on Xtradecal sheet X72139, showing a P-40 of 55 Pursuit Squadron, 20 Pursuit Group, based in California in 1940:- The artwork for this aircraft is labelled as a "P-40" rather than a "P-40B" as all the other schemes on the sheet are. Furthermore the artwork shows long-barrelled guns protruding from the top of the engine cover, so I'm thinking that this is an early production Model 81. I'm no P-40 expert, but from what I've read it seems that early Model 81's might have either one or two guns in the wing? And then I'm not sure if they would be long or short barrelled... To summarise:- (1) Long barrelled guns above the engine? (2) How many guns in each wing? Long-barrelled or short barrelled? The Xtradecal sheet references the Monogram book USAC/USAAF C&M Vol.1, p139, so I assume there is a photo of this machine there. Unfortunately I don't have a copy! If anyone could shed any light on these questions I would be very grateful. I'll admit I'm hoping for long-barrels so I can build something that looks a bit different to the more familiar P-40B! Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekS Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 Hi, Just checked my copy, the fuselage gun muzzles are just short of the spinner. As to the wing guns,I can`t see any.Not fitted? Or my bad eyes? HTH Derek S 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoffrey Sinclair Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 The only USAAF Version in 1940 was the P-40 (ignoring the 1 P-40G) 2x0.50 inch in the fuselage and 1x0.30 inch in each wing. The P-40B began production in February 1941, it had an extra 0.30 inch in each wing, along with pilot armour, bulletproof windscreen and leakproof fuel tanks. The Tomahawk I began production a month after the P-40 and had 2x0.50 inch in the fuselage and 2x0.303 inch in each wing, then came the Tomahawk IIA, then IIB by the end of 1940. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted January 18 Share Posted January 18 I would add wing guns (one per wing) had their ammo access on upper surface of wing and fuselage guns were long model(the short type was made by cut off the forward end of these tube at a 25° angle, from 7th jul 41) and there was one hole only in the rear window for fuel cap, the oil cap acces door was on the frame aft the glass 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted January 19 Share Posted January 19 (edited) @Dave Slowbuild If you drop me a PM I'll sort out a way to send you a picture of that aircraft (shows a little use as well, so can gauge your weathering requirements), but as the others have stated long tubes on the .50's and 1 x .30 cal per wing, aircraft also had Aluminum blades (front of blades) not black Buz Edited January 19 by Buz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slowbuild Posted January 19 Author Share Posted January 19 @derekS, @Geoffrey Sinclair, @BS_w, many thanks for your help, your comments are duly noted! @Buz, thanks for the offer of the photo, I have just sent you a PM. My first attempt at a PM, so hopefully I haven’t messed it up… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Starmer Posted January 21 Share Posted January 21 Please note that on P-40CU to P-40C there are no forward frames for the windscreen. Instead there are two internal pairs of wire supports below the glass in the windscreen from the top of the frame down to a point in front of the dashboard. The front screen was a simple single piece wrapround. 'P-40 Warhawk in Detail, Part 1 YP-36 through P-40C.' Drawings and models inaccurately show otherwise: When an armoured glass shield was fitted it was internal and it is the edges of this which are visible through the quarterlights 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 Effectively, there were no vertical frame On P 36 and P40, up to P40C, the windscreen was an assembly of three piece of non shatterable glass maintained together in top ans bottom frames assembly by two rods screwed. the joints between the glasses were filled with glue. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slowbuild Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 @Mike Starmer, @BS_w, Thanks for your comments, and apologies for not noticing them sooner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slowbuild Posted February 1 Author Share Posted February 1 On 18/01/2024 at 18:08, BS_w said: there was one hole only in the rear window for fuel cap, the oil cap acces door was on the frame aft the glass @BS_w, I wasn't aware of this but have come across the image below which I think shows the position of the P-40 oil cap you are referring to? There appears to be something circular immediately aft of the glass, with an oily smear running backwards from it? Assuming this is the case, which of the two holes in the glass (and therefore which filler cap)needs to be removed? I'm afraid I don't know which is the fuel cap and which is the oil cap...! I haven't seen this feature in any other image of a P-40 (including RAF Tomahawks) so I am curious if it was a standard production fit, or perhaps a short lived trial. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 On 1/21/2024 at 5:31 PM, Mike Starmer said: ......When an armoured glass shield was fitted it was internal and it is the edges of this which are visible through the quarterlights There is in fact no such thing (despite numerous use of the phrase here and elsewhere) as 'armoured glass'. What is in fact being referred to is laminated glass. There is/are interlayer/s of resilient plastic 'Saflex' then from Monsanto or 'Butacite' from DuPont. I worked many years on the former and a short while on the latter. The plastic is tough, flexible and bonds well to glass (so broken glass is still bonded to the interlayer). The number and thicknesses of glass and interlayers is up to the Glazier (for want of a better word). I was only concerned the equipment for its production. Neither of the two above produce it any longer (sold off) indeed Monsanto (who still pay me a pension) no longer exists. I've already gone too much 'off thread' so go to Wikepedia or elsewhere for more information.... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dana Bell Posted February 1 Share Posted February 1 Hi Dave, Great choice for a good looking build. Before you get too far I've a few notes that might help, some addressing your questions... - The aircraft is certainly a P-40 (AKA P-40-CU, but no model suffix). This was the only model to carry the r/w/b rudder stripes and 4-position wing insignia, with no fuselage insignia. (The 50 P-40 fuselages rebuilt as P-40Gs retained the fuselage markings, but carried only 2 wing insignia.) - The Neutral Gray camouflage came up beneath the horizontal tail for countershading. On P-40Bs and subsequent the demarcation was as shown in the decal artwork. - The Dark OD swept around the wing leading edge for a few degrees, though not as far as seen on many Navy aircraft. - The "U. S. ARMY" underwing marking was black; the marking changed to Insignia Blue on P-40Bs and subsequent. - The revised wing root fairing was added in the field and carried a slightly different shade of OD. - The aircraft was delivered with the long blast tubes for the synchronized guns. In tests the tubes flexed too much and were destroyed by the bullets trying to pass through them. As a fix, the tubes were shortened with the front trimmed at an angle. - There were no gas/oil ports in the left-side rear vision tunnel. A small hatch for the fuselage fuel tank was on the fuselage below the rear vision tunnel, and a small oil filler tank hatch was aft of the tunnel. - Hap Arnold wanted four .30s in each wing, but there was no money for the extra guns - all unsuffixed P-40s provided for installation on a single gun in each wing. - The "armored" glass (as noted above, not really armored, but at least adding some protection from rifle-caliber rounds) was eventually installed in some P-40s, but by then the markings were revised. Enjoy the build - I look forward to seeing your results! Cheers, Dana 2 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 18 hours ago, Dave Slowbuild said: ssuming this is the case, which of the two holes in the glass (and therefore which filler cap)needs to be removed? I'm afraid I don't know which is the fuel cap and which is the oil cap...! I haven't seen this feature in any other image of a P-40 (including RAF Tomahawks) so I am curious if it was a standard production fit, or perhaps a short lived trial. Dave Sorry, I'm wrong(fail memory) about the fuel cap on early P40 , Dana give the good response, fuel cap was on fuselage just below the port rear window 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slowbuild Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 @Denford, thanks for the information on the laminated glass/plastic shield. Fascinating stuff, I love learning new things like this ! @Dana Bell, thanks for your comprehensive notes; I shall try to incorporate everything into the build! I was unaware of the OD wraparound on the wings in particular, so I shall return to poring over photos again! @BS_w, that’s a terrific photo, a picture is worth a thousand words as they say. Fully understand now from that, and Dana’s comment, on the locations of those two filler caps. Incidentally, regarding the windshield, the Airfix clear part has a pair of faint lines which would tempt the unwary into painting them as part of a frame; now I am aware of this trap I shall leave them unpainted, or sand and polish them out, to be decided… Thanks again to all of you for your help, it is very much appreciated! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS_w Posted February 2 Share Posted February 2 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dave Slowbuild said: Incidentally, regarding the windshield, the Airfix clear part has a pair of faint lines which would tempt the unwary into painting them as part of a frame; now I am aware of this trap I shall leave them unpainted, or sand and polish them out, to be decided… these two lines are the joint of 1/4"glasses and just behind, lined up to them there were the tie rods(3/16 dia) which maintain the top and bottom frame Edited February 2 by BS_w 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Slowbuild Posted February 2 Author Share Posted February 2 14 minutes ago, BS_w said: the tie rods(3/16 dia) By my calc 3/16” is 0.066mm at 1/72 scale, so I think that would be too fine a line to attempt to paint. Maybe a bit of stretched sprue would do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) On 2/2/2024 at 5:16 AM, Dana Bell said: - The Neutral Gray camouflage came up beneath the horizontal tail for countershading. On P-40Bs and subsequent the demarcation was as shown in the decal artwork. - The Dark OD swept around the wing leading edge for a few degrees, though not as far as seen on many Navy aircraft. Dana Not often we get to do this but, in this case, not quite. I think she would have likely left the factory as you state above, however when she was with the 20th Pursuit Group she didn't have the counter-shading (although the decal profile is not quite correct they got that bit right). This change seems to be only with a limited number of aircraft, and because its multiple Squadrons over multiple groups, I'd assess this has occurred because they had been damaged, then repaired at a depot level - during which they've been repainted. Examples identified include aircraft from the: 20th Pursuit Group - #23/20P, #41/20P, #90/20P, #100/20P (1941) 31st Pursuit Group - #2/31P, #4/31PG, #44/31PG, #51/31P, #57/31PG 35th Pursuit Group - #11/35P Material Div - #20/MD The above is based of imagery only, there is a picture of this aircraft that I forwarded to the OP (PM me if you want it) Lets not worry about some of those awesome wartime schemes for the P-40CUs - as they had gone through service life and depot servicing by the time the pictures were taken (such as 39-157 at Lincoln in early 1943, 39-184 at Luke in 1942 etc, and the unknown marked as 175/42ED) All the best Buz Edited February 4 by Buz 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Just an odd history note, Dave.... This was the 55th Pursuit emblem prior to 1934. James 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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