Spitfire cockpit green

[Peter Roberts]

While many modellers (myself included) use the standard RAF interior grey-green for their Spitfire cockpits, it would appear that a light apple-green (sorry, best description I could think of) was more likely.

Is there any information to show that the more typical grey-green was used? Did different factories use different interior finishes? Or was there one standard paint supplier for ALL Spitfire production?

PR

[Edgar]

There was a specific "vocabulary" number (309) for "Cockpit grey-green"; I've only found a single reference to it, and never seen a colour card.

It's very unlikely that there was only one manufacturer, since it was standard practice for Farnborough (who were responsible for wartime colours) to produce a stack of colour cards, which were distributed throughout the trade.

Way back when Airfix produced their 1/24 Spitfire I, in one of the (Palitoy, I think) production runs, the instruction booklet advocated 90, in the Humbrol range, and we did match 90's colour chip to the leftover panels of Mk.I AR213, after its first-ever rebuild.

When Hornby took over Airfix, they didn't know what 90 was (Airfix/Humbrol seem never to have said what beige-green was actually for,) so, thinking it was supposed to be Sky, they've now reformulated it to match that colour.

A few years ago, I met the man responsible for James May's Spitfire, and he told me how erks had told him how, if they were short of cockpit green, they mixed their own from camouflage green + Sky (didn't tell him the proportions, though.) Bear in mind that it was a top coat, not a primer, so went over a grey primer, with all the variations that could entail.

There's a Spitfire IX, MH415, recently "found" in an American barn, which hasn't flown for around 40 years, and there are some photos to be found on the net, which include the cockpit, and the colour, dusty as it is, is worth checking.

There are also some photos of a rebuild of a Finnish Hurricane, which exhibit the same (or very similar) cockpit colour.

Every chance I get, I nag Hornby about producing a "proper" cockpit green again, but no luck, so far.

Edgar

[John]

Whatever formulation changes Hornby may have made to Humbrol 90, the actual colour has remained remarkably consistent from it's introduction in the late 1970s until now. The colour that *does* seem to have undergone a transformation towards Sky in the fairly recent past is 23 Duck Egg Blue:

Humbrol "Blue Stripe" (1990s) against current Hirnby production of enamel 90:

Even 20 years ago 90 was pretty much spot on for Sky.

John

[Edgar]

Whatever has happened in the last 20 years, we now know that, 40 years ago, 90 was designed as cockpit green; perhaps (if one still exists) a colour chip from that era might be illuminating.

[Peter Roberts]

So, can we safely say there was more than one version of 'cockpit green'?

Interesting comment, Edgar, about the Hurricane. Maybe Hawker settled on one particular version during early production?

Appreciate your comment about the use of an undercoat/primer, which may also have affected the final appearance. But, even bearing this in mind, there does seem to have been more than one 'cockpit green' for WW2 British aircraft.

With regards the Spitfire, do we know if there was just the one type of 'cockpit green' applied, or was more than one type used at different times? If more than one type, any way of knowing which when/where?

PR

[tempestfan]

I think Airfix instructions in the Palitoy years still referred to Airfix's own range "Mx"/"Gx" paints, Humbrol numbers only coming in in 1986 after Humbrol's take over (and then, for quite some time, unmodified instructions were used, with a "translation slip" from Airfix to Humbrol in the box), so 90 may only have come into use after 1986 - in Airfix instructions.

Edited August 7, 2014 by tempestfan

[Rick Brown]

Watching with interest.........

Rick.

[Dave Fleming]

Whatever has happened in the last 20 years, we now know that, 40 years ago, 90 was designed as cockpit green; perhaps (if one still exists) a colour chip from that era might be illuminating.

Somewhere I have a late 70s/early 80s Humbrol colour chart.

What's the provenance of the claim that it was supposed to be a cockpit green?

The fact that it was listed as the most appropriate colour for a Spitfire cockpit only shows that someone was on the ball to the fact that early Spitfire cockpits were a different shade.

I recall when MAPS restored K9942 they reported that the cockpit was a shade they described as 'apple green'

[noelh]

If anyone has access to the IWM spitfire. I would have thought there was an opportunity to establish once and for the colour?

[John]

Whatever has happened in the last 20 years, we now know that, 40 years ago, 90 was designed as cockpit green; perhaps (if one still exists) a colour chip from that era might be illuminating.

We don't know that at all, I'm afraid. The oldest pot of 90 I have is a first generation acrylic from the early 1980s (when Humbrol acrylic smelled like household emulsion). When brushed out and compared to the current Hornby era acrylic 90, they are as close as makes no difference:

Airfix and Humbrol were separate entities when 90 (and 78 Cockpit Green, for that matter) were added to the standard colours range, I'm happy with the conclusion that 90 was the direct replacement for the Authentic Colour HB 5 "Sky Type S". I'll be happy to review that conclusion if an earlier sample of 90 than my 30-odd year old one is found and proves to be markedly different from the current shade.

In any event I thought the contention was that Hornby reformulated the colour post 2006, not Humbrol 40 years ago?

John

[Nick Millman]

FWIW the earliest Humbrol paint chart I have, undated but with paints described as "one hour plastic enamel" has only gloss # 1 Eau-de-Nil and "authentic matt finish" 23 Matt Duck Egg Blue. No Beige Green.

The MAP DTD paint swatch books have Grey-Green listed as colour # 6 but it is a bit lighter than in the RAF museum book. The Supermarine S6B had a cockpit colour which appears to be eau-de-nil and this was the colour specified for the interiors of vehicles, aka "puke green", right up to modern times. I reckon it was Eau-de-Nil that was first used in Spitfire cockpits but was deemed too "pukey" for pilots and replaced with the Grey Green but I have absolutely no evidence for that. Spitfire components I have examined match the Grey Green and Humbrol 78 quite well and I have posted the analysis details here before at least twice.

There was a 1925 'primer green' which is more yellowish than grey green, probably based on chromate pigments, but I don't know if it was used inside cockpits.

Nick

[John]

Nick, does your early Humbrol chart have a colour 28? That was Matt Sky in the very early days but I suspect it was dropped from the range about the time the Authentics were brought in.

When Gerald Scarborough and Roy Cross produced "Spitfire, Classic Aircraft No.1 Their history and how to model them" for Airfix and PSL way back in the early 1970s they commented on the interior colour of early airframes, and arrived at the correct shade by adding a dash of 38 Lime to 1 Eau-de-Nil. When I tried the same experiment with WEM Eau-de-Nil and 38 Lime, adding just enough Lime to discern a change in the colour of the EdN, I ended up with a colour very close to the current BS381c 217 Sea Green.

In the 1980s 90 would probably have been the closest colour in the Humbrol range to EdN.

Hello, my name is John and I'm a paint collector...

John

[tempestfan]

Wasn't 28 something like MSG, or did that come after they dropped a Sky with the same number (or am I just completely wrong) ?

[John]

The current Humbrol 28 is Matt Camouflage Grey, introduced about 20 years ago. 28 is a reused number, in this case.

http://www.humbrol.com/28-camouflage-grey-matt-14ml-enamel-paint.html

John

[Edgar]

We don't know that at all, I'm afraid.

Since 90 was advocated as the cockpit colour in an issue of the 1/24 Spitfire, yes, we do.

Also, if 90 is (and always was) a direct replacement for Sky, why, in 2000, when Humbrol issued their "Colour System," did they advocate a 4-colour mix (none of which was 90) for Sky, rather than tell us to use 90?

[Nick Millman]

Nick, does your early Humbrol chart have a colour 28? That was Matt Sky in the very early days but I suspect it was dropped from the range about the time the Authentics were brought in.

When Gerald Scarborough and Roy Cross produced "Spitfire, Classic Aircraft No.1 Their history and how to model them" for Airfix and PSL way back in the early 1970s they commented on the interior colour of early airframes, and arrived at the correct shade by adding a dash of 38 Lime to 1 Eau-de-Nil. When I tried the same experiment with WEM Eau-de-Nil and 38 Lime, adding just enough Lime to discern a change in the colour of the EdN, I ended up with a colour very close to the current BS381c 217 Sea Green.

In the 1980s 90 would probably have been the closest colour in the Humbrol range to EdN.

Hello, my name is John and I'm a paint collector...

John

Yes! Sorry I missed that because it looks more like a blue-grey on the chart! Matt Sky 28. I'll post a pic of the chart later. There is also a gloss Sky Blue 13 that looks like the pre-war BS colour.

Nick

[John]

Since 90 was advocated as the cockpit colour in an issue of the 1/24 Spitfire, yes, we do.

Also, if 90 is (and always was) a direct replacement for Sky, why, in 2000, when Humbrol issued their "Colour System," did they advocate a 4-colour mix (none of which was 90) for Sky, rather than tell us to use 90?

We know that somebody in the Palitoy firmament chose 90 for the interior colour, not *why* they chose it, but I can assure you that 1980s 90 was pretty much the same shade as 2014 90.

As for the Colour System - no idea, but you can see from the images I've posted above that 90 is and always has been a perfectly acceptable facimilie for Sky.

John

[Dave Fleming]

Since 90 was advocated as the cockpit colour in an issue of the 1/24 Spitfire, yes, we do.

Also, if 90 is (and always was) a direct replacement for Sky, why, in 2000, when Humbrol issued their "Colour System," did they advocate a 4-colour mix (none of which was 90) for Sky, rather than tell us to use 90?

Is that cause and effect though? When the colour matches for the big Spitfire under Humbrol were introduced (which would have been late 80s?) did someone check what was in the Scarborough book and say '90' is the nearest match? Or even 'What's the nearest match to the old Airfix instructions?"

What colour was specified for the underside?

[Peter Roberts]

Don't mean to throw a spanner in the works here, but it would seem this lighter brighter cockpit green wasn't just on the early Spitfires.

The museum at Wigram in New Zealand has a Mk XVI with this shade in the cockpit. Yes, it has been repainted, but only after careful colour matching with the original colour. I have heard that some Spitfires also had the more typical (?) grey-green, but no hard evidence (?). Were perhaps ALL Spitfire cockpits this lighter brighter green?

PR

[Edgar]

We know that somebody in the Palitoy firmament chose 90 for the interior colour, not *why* they chose it, but I can assure you that 1980s 90 was pretty much the same shade as 2014 90.

If they chose to advocate it for a cockpit interior, it would seem a fairly clear indication that that is why they chose it (at least it does to me.) That also probably explains why Hornby found that they needed to change the formula to get it to match Sky (and that information came from Trevor Snowden.)

As for the Colour System - no idea

Allow me:- Humbrol No.34 x 160 drops + 101 x 5 + 99 x 4 + 60 x 1.

but you can see from the images I've posted above that 90 is and always has been a perfectly acceptable facimilie for Sky.

And anyone with the colour chips, supplied by Humbrol, in the Colour System, can see that 90 was not meant to be a match for Sky, and that is my concern, not what actually ended up in the tin.

[tempestfan]

When the colour matches for the big Spitfire under Humbrol were introduced (which would have been late 80s?) did someone check what was in the Scarborough book and say '90' is the nearest match? Or even 'What's the nearest match to the old Airfix instructions?"

I think this is the most likely thing that happened. It would have been in 1986, as the Spit apparently was in the first Humbrol batch , and I don't think any of the early kits came without translation to Humbrol paints, as the required Humbrol paints were also stated on the box.No idea what Airfix originally specified - M16 perhaps (which is approximative to Sky, somewhat) ?

Edited August 7, 2014 by tempestfan

[johnd]

Don't mean to throw a spanner in the works here, but it would seem this lighter brighter cockpit green wasn't just on the early Spitfires.

The museum at Wigram in New Zealand has a Mk XVI with this shade in the cockpit. Yes, it has been repainted, but only after careful colour matching with the original colour. I have heard that some Spitfires also had the more typical (?) grey-green, but no hard evidence (?). Were perhaps ALL Spitfire cockpits this lighter brighter green?

PR

The Airfix Mk.22 instructions specify Hu 120 for the cockpit.

John.

[John]

Is that cause and effect though? When the colour matches for the big Spitfire under Humbrol were introduced (which would have been late 80s?) did someone check what was in the Scarborough book and say '90' is the nearest match? Or even 'What's the nearest match to the old Airfix instructions?"

What colour was specified for the underside?

IIRC the Cross and Scarborough based their researches on the Mk1 in the Science Museum?

I suspect that's probably correct about 90 being the nearest "out of the tin" equivalent to the mix quoted in the book, even though it isn't that close. As I said above, when I tried the mix from the book I got quite a bright apple green almost the same as BS381-217. I had a Palitoy-era Blueprint Box Spitfire, but I don't recall any of the colour callouts at this distance in time, I'm afraid! However I do know that the current incarnation of the 1/24 Mk1 "still" calls for 90 on the inside, although the 1/48th scale Mk1 and the new MkVb look for 78. Go figure, as they say!

BTW the original 1973 release of the Hurricane called for Airfix's own M20, which was Aircraft Grey/Green.

John

[Dave Fleming]

There is more than enough evidence that some Humbrol colours drifted in shade from their intended one over the years, especially in the aftermath of the end of the authentics range (I have 3 pots of acrylic 78 in front of me, each of which are different!), so having to re-formulate it to match Sky doesn't mean that it wasn't originally supposed to be a match.

Does anyone know when 90 WAS added to the range?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Dave Fleming

[tempestfan]

1978, according to Richard Humm.