RAF Brewster Buffalo colours

[spitfire]

Having spent quite a bit of time searching through old threads on various modelling websites and Blogs, copying and pasting the results together I have not really tied down what colours were used on the RAF Buffalo order, sure it will probably never be known for certain which paints were used but I am sure that there are some experts out there whose opinions would be far more accurate that my mine. I want to go with the best advice that is available.

The recent thread on here about 71-021 ties in with what I have read elsewhere and I would be happy to go with FS35622 in the form of Xtracolor X149, Xtracolor and WEM Colourcoats being my favoured brands.

All the threads that I have read concentrate on the mysterious underside colours assuming that everyone knows what the top side colours are, so they are not really mentioned, RAF equivalent Dark Green and Dark Earth, Du Pont 71-013 and 71-035 are mentioned as is 71-009.

From my cutting and pasting efforts the most popular FS numbers attached to these are 34092 for the Dark green and 30118 for 71-009, I haven't found an FS number for 71-035 yet though.

Also for 71-021 I have found references to 36473 and 36622. looking at my colour swatch these are quite different to 35622 which is the one that I will use.

I have been looking for Brewster Buffalo colours and reading up on early P-40 colours to cast my net as wide as possible, but has anyone translated the Du Pont chart into FS numbers or model paints yet ?

I could just use RAF Dark Green and Dark Earth and say that they did a great job on the day that they painted the particular subject that I build a model of.

Cheers

Dennis

[mhaselden]

Hmmm...can't wait to see the responses to this one!

[bentwaters81tfw]

If you look in the 'Color photo' thread, you will find a colour Buffalo scrapyard picture!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8270787%40N07...269786717/show/

[mhaselden]

Dennis,

Sorry for my first, rather unhelpful, response - just couldn't resist. Hopefully the following drivel maybe of more utility...

The Commonwealth operated 2 distinct marks of Buffalo: the B339B which was obtained from undelivered Belgian orders and mostly served with the FAA and the B339E which were UK-procured aircraft, 167 of which went to the Far East.

The B339B was originally delivered in Belgian camouflage comprising dark brown and dark green uppers with aluminium undersides. There are a couple of colour pics showing this scheme in which the dark brown looks considerably darker and more chocolatey than RAF Dark Earth. Upon arrival in the UK, the undersides were repainted probably in Sky. It's unclear whether the uppers were also repainted although it's possible, perhaps even likely.

For the B339Es, the harsh reality is that we don't know what colours were specified or applied for the RAF Buffalos destined for the Far East.

The Dark Earth equivalent may have been darker than the specified RAF Dark Earth - there is evidence of a lighter tone where codes were overpainted when aircraft changed units. However, the recent colour pics of 27 Sqn Blenheims also show a "Light Earth" tone at the tip of the fins on some aircraft, so perhaps Far East Command lacked extensive stocks of Dark Earth and just made do with Light Earth, and hence the actual brown applied to Buffalos may have been close to Dark Earth (this seems odd given that Dark Earth was worn by all overland combat aircraft in the Command but we can't rule it out). The Dark Green was, in all likelihood, a decent match for RAF Dark Green but, again, we have no empirical evidence one way or another.

Now for the vexing question of the underside colour. One Buffalo pilot recalled the aircraft wore a pale blue fuselage band and that the undersides were also pale blue but a shade darker than the band. Given that we know the 27 Sqn's fighter Blenheims (probably) wore Sky Blue fuselage bands, it seems reasonable to assume that Buffalos in Singapore were similarly marked, in which case the undersides may have worn a non-standard blue shade somewhere between Sky Blue and Azure Blue. Another Buffalo pilot recollected a mix of underside colours, some pale blue, others almost off-white. A number of airframes suffered accidents but were subsequently repaired, one example being W8202 which suffered a wheels up landing in August 41. One presumes that such damage would require some repainting of the undersides which could feasibly have been done in Sky Blue rather than matching the actual underside shade applied to the airframe, which could reasonably explain the different shades noted by the pilot. This brings us back to the question of what colour was applied to the undersides. It could have been a darker shade of Sky Blue, and there is evidence on the FAA Museum's very original Grumman Wildcat that a Sky Blue shade was applied to some aircraft purchased from the US. My personal view is that the Buffalos wore some approximation of Sky, perhaps 71-021, as that would also account for the tonal difference between the underside colour and the fuselage band (the latter being lighter in tone) seen on monochrome photos.

So I've used up a lot of words but haven't really answered your question. I recently asked about "out of the pot" matches for 71-021 and it seems that Tamiya's XF-23 is a good match. However, I'm sure Nick Millman and others will be along shortly to provide more detailed info on FS numbers and model paint equivalents.

Kind regards,

Mark

Edited November 28, 2011 by mhaselden

[LDSModeller]

Hi Dennis

I guess in your research into the many threads on US "Equivalence" colours,

you would have read that

1) They are Equivalent colours designed to match RAF comtempory colours at the time of ordering, and be used in conjuction with

RAF paints at the time, especailly during repairs etc.

2) In the days of Equavalence colours there was no such thing as the Ferderal Standard colour code,

we often refer to as FS....

This P 40E has been restored (in a manner of speaking) and painted in the colours recieved (being Equivalence colours)

by the RNZAF in 1942 from British MAP orders Ex USA. Hopefully these pictures may give you some help.

Note the underside colour.

FS 35622 Chip

FS35622

The important thing to bear in mind is that it's your model, and accuracy aside if you wanted to paint it

in RAF Dk Earth/Dark Green, more power to you!!!

Also, if they are the x3 339E Buffaloes shipped for test flying in Great Britain, then they wil not have the same

weathering as their Far East based counterparts.

Hope that helps some

Alan

[Bruce Archer]

Hi All!

One must remember the records from Brewster are gone, tossed when Brewster was shut down by the USN. So we do not know what colors were applied to which models, or even which batches.

Often US manufacturers would substitute other colors (most likely "close enough") to make sure the production numbers were met.

Use care when looking at 70+ year old color images, as the emulsion has probably shifted.

Bruce

[spitfire]

Well I have been bumbling along looking through my scanty references and searching through the web for information, not a lot out there that helps but I have decided which way I am going.

The order for Buffalo's (B-339E) came at a time when the US was building other aircraft for the British government, this was pre Lend Lease the British taxpayer was footing the bill, so the paint colours and patterns would have been part of the contract as with other US built aircraft.

Curtiss was also building aircraft for the British so it would be reasonable to assume that the specifications would have come from the same people who ordered the Buffalo's so maybe the same paint was used, the same numbers keep coming up Du Pont 71-009, 71-013 and 71-021.

Scanning through some articles on P-36's and P-40's (SAM Nov 2003) I came across a reference that 71-013 matches #30 Dark Green, and that 71-009 matches #34 Rust Brown, a quick look at the back pages (The Colors section) of "Air Force Colors" Volume 1 by Dana Bell then gave me FS34092 for #30 and FS30117 for #34.

A quick visit to the IPMS Stockholm site and the Ultimate Model Paint Conversion Chart gave me some model paints to match to the FS numbers.

They are:

FS34092

Humbrol H149 Dark Green

Xtracolor X114Medium Green Euro 1

MM1764 European Green

WEM Colourcoats ACUS16, Medium Green 42

FS30117

Humbrol H186 Brown

Model Master 1701 Military Brown

The colours on the FS Colorserver look great, so unless I find out more these will probably be the ones that I go with as well as FS35622 for the undersides, model paint for FS35622 came out as follows

Xtracolor X149 Israeli Pale Blue

Humbrol H122 Matt Pale Blue

Model Master 1722 Duck Egg Blue

Cheers

Dennis

Edited November 29, 2011 by spitfire

[Test Graham]

Are you doing a Far East Buffalo? In which case bear in mind that you will need contrasting colours for the underside and the tail band/spinner.

I interpret this as Sky Blue Trim over Dupont Sky Type S Grey undersides, but others no doubt may argue otherwise.

[spitfire]

Are you doing a Far East Buffalo? In which case bear in mind that you will need contrasting colours for the underside and the tail band/spinner.

I interpret this as Sky Blue Trim over Dupont Sky Type S Grey undersides, but others no doubt may argue otherwise.

I have not got that far yet but it does give me food for thought, thanks for that.

Cheers

Den

[mhaselden]

Are you doing a Far East Buffalo? In which case bear in mind that you will need contrasting colours for the underside and the tail band/spinner.

I interpret this as Sky Blue Trim over Dupont Sky Type S Grey undersides, but others no doubt may argue otherwise.

Graham,

If by Dupont Sky Type S Grey you mean 71-021 then I'm in agreement with you. I think that's the most logical explanation based on the evidence currently available.

Cheers,

Mark

[Jennings Heilig]

Don't necessarily expect there to be FS "matches" to any DuPont colors. There may be some that are close, but remember that the FS595 is simply a collection of colors (not a true color system) used in federally contracted items. It doesn't purport to be the be-all and end-all of colors.

The upshot on stuff like Buffalos (Buffali?) and Hawks is that we may very well never really, truly know *exactly* what colors they wore. We can make educated guesses and research is ongoing, but I've come to the conclusion after doing this for a lot of years that there is simply some knowledge that has been lost to history.

[Dave Fleming]

I've come to the conclusion after doing this for a lot of years that there is simply some knowledge that has been lost to history.

Indeed - although history does throw up the odd unexpected gem, like a colour photo of a WW1 Nieuport that changed a lot of opinions.

[mhaselden]

I'm still waiting for the LIFE archive to throw up some decent colour pics of Buffalos at Kallang. The guy was there taking pics of Blenheims and he took dozens of monochrome pics of Buffalos at Seletar and Kallang. Why oh why didn't he just shoot off a couple of pics from his colour roll using Buffalos as a backdrop. It would have made our lives (well, mine at least) so much easier. Some people are so inconsiderate!!

[spitfire]

While I have you gentlemen's attention is the rendition of Sky Blue in the colour chart on the back pages of the book "British Aviation Colours of World War Two" considered to be acurate ?

Cheers

Den

[Greenshirt]

Armed with Nick's information, my fan of FS colors and some jars (tins) of paint, I decided to do a comparison of model paints. I'll not post a picture because of variations in monitors, cameras, etc.

My objective was to find a decent model paint for 71-013 Dupont Dark Green. Nick showed a comparison of FS 14056 and FS 34092, given the latter is considered a "standard" for 71-013 by some modelers, but Nick numerically indicates 14056 is actually a closer match to 71-013. If I mis-interpreted his post I'll be glad to be corrected.

I don't know of FS 14056 out of the jar, so I pulled 11 dark greens from my paint shelf and stirred each very well to ensure a uniform color; brush painted with two coats on a white card. Six were acrylic and 5 were enamels. Not scientific by any means as I don't have ALL dark greens available as model paints, but I have more than I probably should.

Acrylic

I started by looking at the open container and "eyeballing" it near to my FS 595 fan card (#12) which has 14056 on it. I chose Vallejo 892 and 897; Tamiya XF11 and 13; and Model Master Acryl 4729 & Tamiya XF81 for comparison.

MM Acryl 4729 is listed as European I Green and FS 34092; the "standard" cited for 71-013 by some modelers and referenced by Nick. Tamiya XF81 is listed as RAF Dark Green and looks close to my eye to my color chip for RAF Dark Green.

XF11 was a near match to FS 14056. Vallejo 897 was a close second and "may" fit Nick's recommendation as a choice between 14056 and 34092, being closer to 14056 but a bit more olive (slightly).

Enamels

Using the same method as the acrylics, my eyeball pulled Humbrol 149 and Model Master 2080 off the shelf. I added Humbrol 116 & 163 as RAF Dark Green comparisons and Model Master 1764 as the FS 34092 comparator.

Humbrol 149 is a near match to FS 34092, but is slightly darker.

Model Master 2080 looked very close to 14056, but not as close as Tamiya's XF11. I would call it a closer, "...tone somewhat between 14056 and 34092..." MM2080 is listed as RLM 70, Schwarz Grun. My assumption when it looked like a contending sample was that it would be too blue, but it's more obvious in the comparison that 14056 has some blue in it. The added benefit of MM2080 is it's satin finish.

Conclusion (all my own of course)

I plan to try both on two Buffalos for comparisons; albeit not soon as I've other projects in work. For Acrylics I'll use XF11, maybe lightened with a drop of white or gray for 72nd scale; and MM2080 for enamels.

I've also another Hawk 81 in store that could get a coat of XF11 or MM2080 for comparison to my AVG Hawk that is sporting 34092. I'm sure the Dupont Dark Earth will change the color perception of the Dupont Dark Green as well.

Tim

[spitfire]

Hi there Tim, I also have been looking for the elusive 14056 mentioned in Nick's blog, I am an enamel man and prefer Xtracolor, WEM and MM paints.

IPMS Stockholm gives a formula for 14056 of - 6*Hu:91 Matt Black Green + 2*Hu:189 Insignia Blue (discontinued) + 1*Hu:3 Brunswick green.

I am not a great fan of Humbrol so will use Xtracolor paints, where possible, my Humbrol charts give me X256 and X23 as alternatives to 91 and 189.

This gives me the following formula - 6 parts X256 RAL7009 Grungrau enamel+ 2 parts X23 BS105 Oxford blue + 1 part H3 Brunswick green.

I like the idea of MM2080 as MM enamels are one of the paint ranges that I do like to use, so thanks for that.

My Buffalo is a long way off yet, I haven't opened the box yet, so it will be a while.

Nick also gives FS30140 for 71-009 I will give Humbrol 119 Israeli Light Earth a go, Model Master 30140 is the other contender but unfortunately it is a spray can.

I will have to gather the ingredients and start painting some chips.

Cheers

Dennis

Edited December 6, 2011 by spitfire

[Greenshirt]

Nick also gives FS30140 for 71-009 I will give Humbrol 119 Israeli Light Earth a go, Model Master 30140 is the other contender but unfortunately it is a spray can.

Dennis, I'm glad that was helpful. When I get a chance I'll see what I've got that might match FS 30140. For some strange reason I don't have as much browns as I do greens.

Tim

[spitfire]

Dennis, I'm glad that was helpful. When I get a chance I'll see what I've got that might match FS 30140. For some strange reason I don't have as much browns as I do greens.

Tim

No the Buffalo is not in the bin (yet) but I have started to put some paint on little squarish pieces of thin white plastic card, and WEM Colourcoats ACRN 24 is a perfect match for the Sky Blue chip in the back of "British Aviation Colours of World War Two". plus Humbrol 119 looks good if a tad light against FS30140 on my FS "Fan".

For green X114 Medium green Euro 1 looks good but again a tad light.

Will continue searching when the next shipment of model paints arrive.

Cheers

Dennis

[Jorge Luis Buttle]

It would be interesting to comment on these colour photos:

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/453-Buffalo/Brewster_Buffalo_W8156_destroyed_in_Malaya_via_Gordon_Birkett

http://www.adf-gallery.com.au/gallery/453-Buffalo/Buffwrecks

The undersurface colours seem to be very light, probably MAP Sky or an American manufactured paint equivalent...

Best regards

Jorge Luis Buttle

Edited February 14, 2014 by Jorge Luis Buttle

[Dave Fleming]

I beleive (but stand to be correted) that both are colourised rather than being genuine colour images

[mhaselden]

The first pic is certainly colourised. It's a still from a Japanese film and I've seen the monochrome original. The second pic, showing the collection of Buffalo and Hurricane wrecks is more challenging . This was released as a colour postcard in Japan during the war. While colour film wasn't extensively used in Japan during the early '40s, it did exist (see the book "Japan's War in Colour" which is where this image was first published). If it is colourised, then it was done by someone who was there - details like the inclusion of red dope battle damage repairs on W8207 in the foreground would be challenging to replicate if the person colouring a monochrome image wasn't actually there when the pic was taken.

[occa]

So I assume these are B339Es and not Bs?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/Buffwrecks.jpg

Nevermind it is stated in the caption here that these are Es

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_F2A_Buffalo

Edited February 14, 2014 by occa

[mhaselden]

Yes, they are B339Es.

[Dave Fleming]

The first pic is certainly colourised. It's a still from a Japanese film and I've seen the monochrome original. The second pic, showing the collection of Buffalo and Hurricane wrecks is more challenging . This was released as a colour postcard in Japan during the war. While colour film wasn't extensively used in Japan during the early '40s, it did exist (see the book "Japan's War in Colour" which is where this image was first published). If it is colourised, then it was done by someone who was there - details like the inclusion of red dope battle damage repairs on W8207 in the foreground would be challenging to replicate if the person colouring a monochrome image wasn't actually there when the pic was taken.

Good points. I think the 'brush work' may have given the impression of colorising

[mhaselden]

Yeah, I agree it does look odd. I just can't figure out why someone would go to all the trouble of matching the specific details, like the battle damage patches, the code letters, the period between the letter and the number in the aircraft serials etc and then make a "schoolboy error" by applying the main camo in such a slapdash fashion. The contrary point is that I can't imagine a natural cause for such an appearance, unless we're seeing a non-uniform overlay of dust and crap on the wrecks. 'Tis a puzzlement...!

Edited February 14, 2014 by mhaselden