P38 Lightning series

[diamant]

Hi to all

Just to let you know that we have started with our P38 Lightning series. We have selected 8 models (3 in RAAF markings and 5 in RAF markings)

My father has just finished the first 3 models. Here are the photos. I hope you like it

1) F4-1-LO 41-2220 75 Sqn RAAF Ataipe NG late 1943

2) F4-1 (A55-1) - EX USAAF 41-2158) 1 PRU Coomalie Creek, NT. December 1942

3) F4-1 (A55-3) - EX USAAF 41-2122) 1 PRU Batchelor

The next two P38 on the list are

4) P38F-13-LO Mk II AF221 Flight test Building 304 April 15, 1942

5) P38-J 44-23517 N° 5 Group, N°54 Base Coningsby After September 1944 Air Cdre Sharp's personal aircraft

Cheers

Santiago

[mike romeo]

Santiago,

As usual, your research puts me to shame. The quality of the building and painting aren't bad either!!! What kits have you used for those 3?

I very much like the colour schemes and you're giving me some ideas. I also can't wait to see Air Cdre Sharp's personal Lightning. What colour scheme and markings are that one in?

My only Lightning is "bog standard" OD / NG with invasion stripes straight out of the Academy box . . .

regards,

Martin

[diamant]

Hi Martin

Thanks. I do like the research part of this hobby. Make me want to build many many models.

Fortunately many peoples al around the world have been helping us with information, time books and kits.

As per what I could read about the Air Cdre Sharp's personal Lightning at one moment aparently it was painted in overall PRU Blue.

So, although the only photo we have shows this aircraft after the war in a NMF we will do it in PRU Blue.

I think that the most appropiate markings could be Type B for the fuselage and upper the wings and the fin flash. Without roundels under the wings nor any serial number.

Kind regards

Santiago

[mike romeo]

Hi Martin

Thanks. I do like the research part of this hobby. Make me want to build many many models.

Fortunately many peoples al around the world have been helping us with information, time books and kits.

As per what I could read about the Air Cdre Sharp's personal Lightning at one moment aparently it was painted in overall PRU Blue.

So, although the only photo we have shows this aircraft after the war in a NMF we will do it in PRU Blue.

I think that the most appropiate markings could be Type B for the fuselage and upper the wings and the fin flash. Without roundels under the wings nor any serial number.

Kind regards

Santiago

A PRU blue Lightning with British roundels !!! I'm doing one of those!!!

[Seahawk]

As per what I could read about the Air Cdre Sharp's personal Lightning at one moment aparently it was painted in overall PRU Blue.

So, although the only photo we have shows this aircraft after the war in a NMF we will do it in PRU Blue.

I think that the most appropiate markings could be Type B for the fuselage and upper the wings and the fin flash. Without roundels under the wings nor any serial number.

Like Mike Romeo I like the idea of doing a droop snoot Lightning in RAF markings.

A photo of this aircraft appears on the page between the contents list and Chapter 1 (page 0?) of Flintham and Thomas' Combat Codes (Airlife, 2003 but reissued since). The caption says, or at least suggests, it's in overall PRU blue. The photo looks to me far more like natural metal, though possibly with paint on the radiators. For me the jury is still out on whether this aircraft was ever in overall PRU blue: would welcome any additional information either way.

What is clear is that it has a 32" Type C roundel underwing. There are no underwing serials. The letters DPA, approx 8" high in black, appear just behind the radiators but no serial number.

The photo is undated and there are no details in Combat Codes on when this aircraft (44-23515) was lent to Air Commodore Sharp or when he relinquished it beyond that the aircraft was used (not necessarily by him) for target marking duties in 1944. However I'd expect it to be pretty late war and hence quite likely that at the time of the photograph it carried the Type C upperwing roundel mandated in January 1945.

54 Base, which A/C Sharp commanded, formed in 5 Group at Coningsby on 1/4/44 and disbanded 1/11/45. It controlled Coningsby (61, 83, 97 and 619 Squadrons), Metheringham (106 Sq) and Woodhall (617 and 627 Sqs). (Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Sturtivant, Hamlin and Halley, Air-Britain, 1997.) Anyone know what function "bases" served? It sounds more like an admin rather than an operational role. Was the Lightning just A/C Sharp's hack?

[Dave Fleming]

I have some information from Vic Flintham as to what DPA might stand for - it came from further research after Combat Codes was published.

The a/c was as I read it A/C Sharp's own hack, and is pictured after the war, so it may have been re-painted from the overall PRU blue it had on operations. If the time lines are correct, it also flew operations with the RAF before it's conversion to droop snoot.

4) P38F-13-LO Mk II AF221 Flight test Building 304 April 15, 1942

Looking forward to seeing this one - a real 'one off' as it only carried RAF markings for a day as a complete airframe.

[Mike Starmer]

Like Mike Romeo I like the idea of doing a droop snoot Lightning in RAF markings.

A photo of this aircraft appears on the page between the contents list and Chapter 1 (page 0?) of Flintham and Thomas' Combat Codes (Airlife, 2003 but reissued since). The caption says, or at least suggests, it's in overall PRU blue. The photo looks to me far more like natural metal, though possibly with paint on the radiators. For me the jury is still out on whether this aircraft was ever in overall PRU blue: would welcome any additional information either way.

What is clear is that it has a 32" Type C roundel underwing. There are no underwing serials. The letters DPA, approx 8" high in black, appear just behind the radiators but no serial number.

The photo is undated and there are no details in Combat Codes on when this aircraft (44-23515) was lent to Air Commodore Sharp or when he relinquished it beyond that the aircraft was used (not necessarily by him) for target marking duties in 1944. However I'd expect it to be pretty late war and hence quite likely that at the time of the photograph it carried the Type C upperwing roundel mandated in January 1945.

54 Base, which A/C Sharp commanded, formed in 5 Group at Coningsby on 1/4/44 and disbanded 1/11/45. It controlled Coningsby (61, 83, 97 and 619 Squadrons), Metheringham (106 Sq) and Woodhall (617 and 627 Sqs). (Source: RAF Flying Training and Support Units by Sturtivant, Hamlin and Halley, Air-Britain, 1997.) Anyone know what function "bases" served? It sounds more like an admin rather than an operational role. Was the Lightning just A/C Sharp's hack?

I looked at that photograph just recently. I formed the opinion that it is post war and finished in Aluminium paint because N/M usually shows tonal values of individual panels whereas this does not. I thought too that there is a just distinguishable yellow surround to the boom roundel which is what the contemporary AMO specified but a non-standard fin flash.

[Miggers]

Very nice Santiago.

I'm a big fan of the P-38,especially the F series.

Air Cdre Sharpe's aircraft sounds very,very interesting indeed(even though it's a J series)

Looking forward to seeing the P38 Series Project unfolding.

All the best.

Mark

[Dave Fleming]

I have some information from Vic Flintham as to what DPA might stand for - it came from further research after Combat Codes was published.

BTW, not being deliberately vague - I need to look it up!!

[diamant]

Hi guys

I have to admit that this part of the hobby is one of my favorite.

This is all that I have regarding this issue.

Quote

The P-38J 44-23517, obtained from the 8th AAF in March 1944 by the CO of RAF Coningsby and used for experimental flights with bomber formations, akin to the "Master Bomber" role (where RAF Mosquitoes flew with bomber formations, observed the results of attacks, and re-directed following aircraft to change their aiming points). After some flights, it was decided to make some modifications to the aircraft, which was sent to the USAAF Depot at Langford Lodge for these to be carried out. The modifications included a transparent nose for a bomb-aimer/navigator, and VHF radios for short-range communication with the bombers. By this time the aircraft had been painted in PRU-blue overall, with RAF roundels and the letters "DPA" on the booms (but no RAF serial number, since the transaction to acquire the aircraft was "unofficial"), although USAAF 8 th AAF recorded it as transferred to the RAF. The British record card for this aircraft shows it arriving at Nª51 MU, Lichfield in May 1946 from RAF Northolt, and that it was shipped to the Netherlands in November 1948, presumably en route to a USAF Depot in Europe"

The P-38L (reportedly 44-24360, although that aircraft never left the USA) was borrowed while the original aircraft was being modified, arriving at Coningsby on 6th August 1944, but was returned to the 8th AAF by the end of August".

Unquote

Reference: 'Air Arsenal North America' by Philip Butler.

"Andy Thomas has unearthed this interesting snippet in connection with N5 Group. One of the Group's Bases was N 54 Base, controlling Coningsby, Methiringham and Woodhall Spa, under the command of Air Commodores Sharp. He had previously served as a liaison officer with HQ US 8th Air Force and when he left to assume his new position was "lent" a P-47 Thunderbolt for his personal use. The hefty fighter was not, however, to his liking and so it was exchange for a Lockheed P-38J Lightning 44-23517, which arrived in mid-summer. At this time Bomber Command was heavily engaged in tactival support to the fighting in Normady and N54 Base Lancasters were flying regular daylight raids into France. Air Cdre Sharp's personal P-38 was flown on several of these raids during the first week of August by Sqn Ldr Owen, though whether as a target marker or an "integral" escort is uncertain. On August 6 a second P-38 44-24360, arrived at Coningsby for a series of trials. Referred to as the "PB-38", it had a "droop snoot" glazed nose to house a Norden bomb-sight and bomb aimer and had provision for two long range overload fuel tanks under the centre section. For security reasons it apparently carried no serials, but retained USAAF markings. Owen flew the "PB" on a number of unspecified trials and it was flown on at least one operation - a daylight raid on Deelen by 94 bombers on the 15th by the irrepressible Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC, who was then acting as the Base Air Staff Officer.

The PB-38 was returned to the USAAF by the end of the month, but it had left its marks on the staff at Coningsby, who took "their" P-38 to Langford Lodge where it was modified as a two-seater with a glazed nose. By the time it was collected in mid-September it had also been fitted with an advanvce suite of navigation aids, Loran and Gee, as well as twin VHF radio sets. When it returned to Coningsby it was also painted in PRU-blue overall with RAF roundels and fin flashes. The RAF`s first, and only, operational P-38 began markings operations immediately, Owen using it on the might of September 23 in raid on Germany. It was flown regularly on operations for a time - as, it is believed a target marker and bomber controller and was well liked by those who flew it.

Eventually, when Air Cdre Sharp left for a new appointment his "personal marker" went with him. After the war it was flown into the huge MU at Lichfield for disposal still in its unique RAF colours.

Unquote

Reference: I have a scanned copy of the article (little part of the sheet) and I do not remember the source.

I have some information from Vic Flintham as to what DPA might stand for - it came from further research after Combat Codes was published.

Quote

"'DPA' is that it stands for 'Directorate for Accident Prevention' (Or Prevention of Accidents) and relates to the aircraft's use after it was withdrawn from operational use."

Unquote

Reference: Dave Fleming

I have to mention that all this information was kindly sent to us by Dave Fleming a year ago when I started the reaserch for this series.

I think that the aircraft in the photo isn't PRU blue anymore, but I almost sure that I can see it on the radiators

So, after reading these articles and seeing the picture this is what I understood.

Please correct me if I am wrong or if any of you have a different version or further information.

1) The aircraft existed

2) Aparently It was modified into a two-seater with a glazed nose before September 1944

3) It was used in operational sorties by September 1944

4) I do not think that it could be in Natural metal finished or Aluminium paint by Sep 1944.

5) How the RAF Mosquitoes used for similar duties by that time were painted? Which type of roundels carried them by Sep 1944?

My conclusion is that I don't see any reason to doubt it was overall blue at one point. What I not sure is about the roundels / markings

Any comments will be more than welcome. I have no more than 2 weeks before my father finished the model. :-)))))

Cheers

Santiago

[Ley]

It seems that the RAAF Lightnings were not F-4s but field modifications of standard fighters. The camera ports were slightly different from the F-4.

[Seahawk]

Santiago

Thank you: some fascinating snippets. There's clearly a lot more information out there on this aircraft than I was aware of. I agree your analysis. Based on your info, I'd go for overall PRU blue with B-type roundels above the wing and no DPA marking. PRU blue aircraft didn't normally carry underwing roundels so personally I'd leave them off.

Which I think is where you came in but at least the rest of us are much better informed! Thanks for the info: I've been holding off on this one because I hate NM/painted aluminium finishes.

Looking forward to seeing the model.

[Seahawk]

It seems that the RAAF Lightnings were not F-4s but field modifications of standard fighters. The camera ports were slightly different from the F-4.

There was a very good article in an old IPMS mag (way back, probably in the Neil Robinson era) on Lightning PR variants including the Australian ones.

[woody37]

Lovely lightnings, really must build one in 2011.

[diamant]

Hi

Many thanks

Please find below a couple of photos showing the Lightning Mk II completed. I hope you like it.

This was the latest model finished by my father in 2010.

Kind regards

Santiago

[modelldoc]

The Droop snoot is a very interesting plane.

Here is the link see my model:

http://pa474.freeforums.org/lockheed-p-38-lightning-t41.html

modelldoc

P.S.

A german captured F-5 is on the bench.

Edited January 3, 2011 by modelldoc

[diamant]

The Droop snoot is a very interesting plane.

Yes, totally agreed with that.

We have the same kit and decals but we will finish it in PRU Blue Overall.

I will post some photos when it be ready.

Cheers

Santiago

[Dave Fleming]

Hi

Many thanks

Please find below a couple of photos showing the Lightning Mk II completed. I hope you like it.

This was the latest model finished by my father in 2010.

Oh my, that does look nice!

[Prop Duster]

Regardless of any color questions, your fathers model is outstanding-very well done

congratulations

[Alex Gordon]

5) How the RAF Mosquitoes used for similar duties by that time were painted? Which type of roundels carried them by Sep 1944?

Fascinating stuff Santiago,splendid work.

A couple of links for you to peruse,colour picture of a 627 squadron Mosquito

Pre June 1944 Mosquito

The above links were obtained from this site.

Keep up the good work,I am in awe.

[diamant]

Oh my, that does look nice!

Hi Dave

Many thanks!!!

You helped us with the information.

Be prepared since I am working hard in the reaserch field for the next project. (Bf108 in RAF markings).

Any assitance is much appreciated

Cheers

Santiago

[diamant]

Regardless of any color questions, your fathers model is outstanding-very well done

congratulations

Many thanks for your comments.

Yes, he has made a good job on these P38 since there is any kit for the version we have made.

Cheers

Santiago

[diamant]

Hi Guys

I hope you are doing well. My father has finished another P38.

The next P38s will be the following aircrafts. With these 3 P38 the project will be done.

6) Mk I AE978 Manufacturer's Factory in California 1942

7) Mk I AE979

8) Mk I AF106 AAEE Boscombe Down June 1942

And here is our interpretation of the P38-J 44-23517 N° 5 Group, N°54 Base Coningsby After September 1944 Air Cdre Sharp's personal aircraft

By seeing the only photo we have of this aircraft my father was able to identified the little windows on sides of the nose and the aerial in the upper side of the nose.

Two little but interesting details.

Here is a photo showing the 5 P38 made so far.

I dealing with the next project which will be the Bf108. Althought I have at least 11 aircrafts selected I have been able to check the camouflage on only 5 of them. I will really appreciate if some of you could help me in this matter (photograph interpretation on captured luftwaffe aircrafts).

Best regards

Santiago

[diamant]

Hi

After a hard work my father finished this series which I believe is quite interesting.

The project included the following aircrafts

1) Mk I AE978 Manufacturer's Factory in California 1942

2) Mk I AE979

3) Mk I AF106 AAEE Boscombe Down June 1942

4) P38F-13-LO Mk II AF221 Flight test Building 304 April 15, 1942

5) P38-J 44-23517 N° 5 Group, N°54 Base Coningsby After September 1944 Air Cdre Sharp's personal aircraft

6) F4-1-LO 41-2220 75 Sqn RAAF Ataipe NG late 1943

7) F4-1 (A55-1) - EX USAAF 41-2158) 1 PRU Coomalie Creek, NT. December 1942

8) F4-1 (A55-3) - EX USAAF 41-2122) 1 PRU Batchelor

Here are the latest models done

Mk I AE978 Manufacturer's Factory in California 1942

Mk I AE979

Mk I AF106 AAEE Boscombe Down June 1942

These are all the RAAF P38

These are all the RAF P38

The camouflage RAF P38 (Mk I and Mk II)

The RAF P38 Mk I

Final group photos.

Final destination. Resting at the display cabinet.

Many thank to all of you that we have been helping us in this project. (Thanks Dave !!!)

I hope you like them

Regards

Santiago

[Dave Fleming]

P-40s after the Bf108s then?