Hornet / Sea Hornet

[Denford]

From time to time there are postings about (usually Airfix) tooling a Hornet \ Sea Hornet: indeed there's even one now on 'Chat' though I feel it more appropriate to 'continue the discussion' here.

 

At the de Havilland Heritage Centre open day earlier this year, I found myself fortunate enough to be sharing a table with an individual who turned out to be the Chairman of the Trustees of the Centre.

 

He confirmed (as I have always thought) that:

- All Hornet drawings have long since been destroyed.

- Although some long abandoned (50+ years) 'wreckage' has been identified in a 'boneyard' in Canada? it would beyond any reasonable restoration.  Something akin to the axe used to behead Anne Bolyen that has since had 3 new heads and 5 new handles.

 

So there can be no true 'rebuilding' or 'restoration' only building a replica using 'best available data' and which may or may not have some 'original' parts.  I think something similar has been done in USA of/for a Me262 and I believe Fw190.  I think the former has modern engines and the latter possibly reduced scale: not sure of this.  Both of course have the advantages of extant examples.

 

So if anybody wants to tool a new Hornet kit, good luck.  It can only be be from 'best available' data.  Airfix certainly won't as they've made it clear (many times) that they must have verifiable data.

[tempestfan]

31 minutes ago, Denford said:

So if anybody wants to tool a new Hornet kit, good luck.  It can only be be from 'best available' data.  Airfix certainly won't as they've made it clear (many times) that they must have verifiable data.

I'd think it should be possible to get most what they want/need from photographs - that luckily are available -, if they have enough precise measurements to calibrate the software with. IMHO the results would be no less verifiable than a LIDAR scan, but probably a lot more work, both in raw data collation and in translation. And then working from contemporary photographs may lessen the danger a later addition which is not typical is faithfully scanned and incorporated into the model, as it is not identified as such...which appears to have happened more than once.

[Work In Progress]

48 minutes ago, Denford said:

I think something similar has been done in USA of/for a Me262 and I believe Fw190.  I think the former has modern engines and the latter possibly reduced scale: not sure of this.

No, they are both full scale. Both use mainstream engines, the 262 uses the modern GE-CJ610, which is tiny but powerful, encased in a replica Jumo-004 casing, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me_262_Project 

There are a couple of new-build Fw.190 using the P&W R-2800, which is a bit over size in diameter but does move the thing through the air with authority.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Work In Progress

[tempestfan]

1 hour ago, Work In Progress said:

 

That slight double-chin gives it a rather aggressive appearance - and I guess the 28 a bit more fun to the jockey!

[Work In Progress]

I understand it is basically a DC-6 spec engine, and they run it at around 1800 hp at low level on 100LL AVGAS, operating 'dry' i.e. without the water/ethanol injection (ADI) that was a feature of some late military and airline ops, and without the benefit of higher octane AVGAS formulations which are no longer readily available, and which back in the day routinely enabled power figures in the 2400+ hp range. So even on today's mainstream fuel that is a useful couple of hundred HP more than the BMW 801 in period, and of course it's typically running quite light as an unarmed aircraft. So, yes, pretty sporty.  

Edited December 19, 2023 by Work In Progress

[Troy Smith]

2 hours ago, Denford said:

only building a replica using 'best available data' and which may or may not have some 'original' parts. 

The chap for this is David Collins but seems he's now a frozen account.

He was building a cockpit, but while searching this turned up

https://pioneeraero.co.nz/2017/09/18/sea-hornet-tt193/

And

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1696998

 

So.. if that happens?  

Anyway, plenty of other things for Airfix to do.

HTH 

[tempestfan]

37 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

Anyway, plenty of other things for Airfix to do.

HTH 

Possibly. But arguably the (Sea) Hornet is in competition for limelight spot for "most attractive twin piston-engined fighter", with the Whirlwind. --- What do we have? Frog 1970 (or thereabouts), and I think SH in 1/72. Dynavector, (IIRC) CA and Trumpeter in 48th. The Dynavector still looks best of the bunch.

[Giorgio N]

3 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

Possibly. But arguably the (Sea) Hornet is in competition for limelight spot for "most attractive twin piston-engined fighter", with the Whirlwind. --- What do we have? Frog 1970 (or thereabouts), and I think SH in 1/72. Dynavector, (IIRC) CA and Trumpeter in 48th. The Dynavector still looks best of the bunch.

 

AZ/KP also issued a series of 1/72 kits quite recently

Edited December 19, 2023 by Giorgio N

[wellsprop]

I stand corrected regarding dh Hornet drawings! (ref my post over on the Airfix 2024 chat). 

 

I'd love to see a Hornet flying, real or replica. A replica with two Merlins would be quite authentic enough! 

[Denford]

4 hours ago, tempestfan said:

I'd think it should be possible to get most what they want/need from photographs - that luckily are available -, if they have enough precise measurements to calibrate the software with. IMHO the results would be no less verifiable than a LIDAR scan, but probably a lot more work, both in raw data collation and in translation. And then working from contemporary photographs may lessen the danger a later addition which is not typical is faithfully scanned and incorporated into the model, as it is not identified as such...which appears to have happened more than once.

Remember that Airfix are in the business of making money: nothing else.  The 'lot more work' will reflect in the sale price and in turn in sales volume.

It may be a sleek, graceful even beautiful aircraft, but one that only ever wore RAF/FAA markings.  It has to compete, worldwide, against 'not invented here', 'our boys never flew them', 'never saw air combat' or even 'never heard of it' .  Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see one tooled, but it has to compete against, say, Boston\Havoc (no modern tooling yet served USAAF, RAF, RAAF, French AF), Harvard (too many users to name) or my 'white hope' Avenger (USN, FAA, RNZAF) and again no modern tooling. 

I'll leave it there.

[Scimitar F1]

There are drawings of the aircraft around. Arthur Bentley has a 3-D CAD model that he has spend many years perfecting. The DBMK 1/32 kit is based on this with extensive input from David Collins and a reasonable amount of research from first principles.

 

Will 

[tempestfan]

13 hours ago, Denford said:

Remember that Airfix are in the business of making money: nothing else.  The 'lot more work' will reflect in the sale price and in turn in sales volume.

It may be a sleek, graceful even beautiful aircraft, but one that only ever wore RAF/FAA markings.  It has to compete, worldwide, against 'not invented here', 'our boys never flew them', 'never saw air combat' or even 'never heard of it' .  Don't get me wrong: I'd love to see one tooled, but it has to compete against, say, Boston\Havoc (no modern tooling yet served USAAF, RAF, RAAF, French AF), Harvard (too many users to name) or my 'white hope' Avenger (USN, FAA, RNZAF) and again no modern tooling. 

I'll leave it there.

Of course they are. But that has not stopped them from doing the Javelin, Vixen, Lightning, even a 1/24 Typhoon (which surely had a sizeable design and tooling budget). None of the jets were exactly export successes. I'd possibly prefer a new-tool 1/48 Canberra, but I'm not quite sure if the 2006 tool has really earned any money, considering the prices I paid for mine. I know time flies, but I'd still consider the AMT A-20 and AccMin TBF/M pretty modern toolings (if talking 1/48), and there is also the HobbyBoss Avenger. They do not make Airfix money anyway. In 72nd, there's the Special Hobby A-20 range, which is not that old either. I agree that a well-planned range of A-20s in both 48th and 72nd would be great, and probably have more sales potential in the US. But Airfix has constantly done anglocentric products, and I guess they would have stopped if they didn't sell.

[wellsprop]

18 hours ago, tempestfan said:

I'd think it should be possible to get most what they want/need from photographs - that luckily are available -, if they have enough precise measurements to calibrate the software with. IMHO the results would be no less verifiable than a LIDAR scan, but probably a lot more work, both in raw data collation and in translation. And then working from contemporary photographs may lessen the danger a later addition which is not typical is faithfully scanned and incorporated into the model, as it is not identified as such...which appears to have happened more than once.

 

Modern CAD software is absolutely fantastic for being able to overlay numerous images from different angles/perspectives and designing the aircraft based on that.

 

Done properly, a model kit designed from images is no less accurate than a model designed from LIDAR. Remember, the majority of the inaccuracy comes from manufacturing tolerances/considerations NOT the CAD design (unless there is a gross error in the fundamental CAD).

 

Having reverse engineered the recent Airfix 1/48 Vampire, the variation in the plastic between different kits is vastly larger than any inaccuracy in the CAD modelling I've done (and I'm not a professional model kit designer!).

 

[Denford]

So are you saying that modern CAD software can produce 3D images from 2D photographs?

[wellsprop]

24 minutes ago, Denford said:

So are you saying that modern CAD software can produce 3D images from 2D photographs?

 

Not automatically, but a skilled designer can produce a dimensional accurate (at least well within the accuracy expected for a scale model) based solely on multiple high quality images.

 

Some parts of the automotive industry in particular (generally high end luxury cars) use this type of design, where an aesthetic designer (not an engineer) handcrafts a shape of a car and a design engineer has to create that shape in CAD - at least, so I was told when I completed my CAD surface design course. 

[Denford]

3 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Of course they are. But that has not stopped them from doing the Javelin, Vixen, Lightning, even a 1/24 Typhoon (which surely had a sizeable design and tooling budget). None of the jets were exactly export successes. I'd possibly prefer a new-tool 1/48 Canberra, but I'm not quite sure if the 2006 tool has really earned any money, considering the prices I paid for mine. I know time flies, but I'd still consider the AMT A-20 and AccMin TBF/M pretty modern toolings (if talking 1/48), and there is also the HobbyBoss Avenger. They do not make Airfix money anyway. In 72nd, there's the Special Hobby A-20 range, which is not that old either. I agree that a well-planned range of A-20s in both 48th and 72nd would be great, and probably have more sales potential in the US. But Airfix has constantly done anglocentric products, and I guess they would have stopped if they didn't sell.

The top line examples you quote were under a different management which eventually went broke.  I doubt they would tool them now, though maybe the Typhoon.

I'm told that 50% of Airfix sales are in UK, hence the desire to have UK markings.  I was also talking mainstream 1/72.

I've yet to see anybody other than Airfix in High Street Shops: certainly not the others you quote.

I'm also rather surprised that the Gannet has only FAA markings.  Maybe they'll reissue with West German, Indonesian and Australian markings, or maybe they feel that real devotees will by those decals from elsewhere.

[Denford]

3 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

 

Not automatically, but a skilled designer can produce a dimensional accurate (at least well within the accuracy expected for a scale model) based solely on multiple high quality images.

 

Some parts of the automotive industry in particular (generally high end luxury cars) use this type of design, where an aesthetic designer (not an engineer) handcrafts a shape of a car and a design engineer has to create that shape in CAD - at least, so I was told when I completed my CAD surface design course. 

I still find the first sentence a little hard to believe and somewhat subjective.  There is also the cost of so doing which may be better spent on another subject for which 'hard' data is readily available.

The second has the advantage that if the aesthetic designer feels that the CAD image isn't what was wanted\meant it can easily be changed.

[wellsprop]

@Denford, I should also add, it does require key dimensions to be known (such as wingspan and length).

 

CATIA CAD has a freestyle function, it's incredibly impressive how accurate shapes can be made, virtual lighting tools are used to make reflections on the surfaces, these are checked against images to make sure the profiles are correct.

 

Though I would be surprised if Airfix chose this route as opposed to designing models based on LIDAR scans.

 

 

[tempestfan]

47 minutes ago, Denford said:

The top line examples you quote were under a different management which eventually went broke.  I doubt they would tool them now, though maybe the Typhoon.

I'm told that 50% of Airfix sales are in UK, hence the desire to have UK markings.  I was also talking mainstream 1/72.

I've yet to see anybody other than Airfix in High Street Shops: certainly not the others you quote.

I'm also rather surprised that the Gannet has only FAA markings.  Maybe they'll reissue with West German, Indonesian and Australian markings, or maybe they feel that real devotees will by those decals from elsewhere.

Not sure what you mean with "different management that went broke" - are you referring to Humbrol vs. Hornby? If so, only the Lightning was a Humbrol product (as were the Canberras, but those were arguably a generation older in design/detailing though ten years younger). The Lightnings have been reissued a number of times, so apparently sell well enough. Not sure about the Javelin, but the Vixen apparently sold out really fast and commanded quite a price 2nd hand on certain sites. Ask me how I know, as I was not quick enough when it was issued...

Mainstream 1/72 could well take downscaled Javelin, Vixen, Hunter 🙂I am pretty sure they will sell well especially in the UK, but also elsewhere. And it's a pity that they haven't expanded the Canberras, though probably they realised that their base left room for improvement...

Lucky you if you have surviving high street shops; in Germany it's pretty tough now to buy kits in brick & mortar shops.

[alt-92]

2 hours ago, Denford said:

I'm told that 50% of Airfix sales are in UK, hence the desire to have UK markings.

The other 50% is a market slice you'd still want to accommodate. 

[Denford]

1 hour ago, wellsprop said:

@Denford, I should also add, it does require key dimensions to be known (such as wingspan and length).

 

CATIA CAD has a freestyle function, it's incredibly impressive how accurate shapes can be made, virtual lighting tools are used to make reflections on the surfaces, these are checked against images to make sure the profiles are correct.

 

Though I would be surprised if Airfix chose this route as opposed to designing models based on LIDAR scans.

 

 

The also use  (or used to  use) manufacturers' drawings.

I don't doubt that shapes can be made accurate, using CATIA but they would still be working from a limited selection of 2D B&W photos.

Another possible drawback is that they may not have this programme in which case there would be licence fees and training costs.

I'm sure there are many, many subjects waiting to be designed with existing software, so no great incentive to add another.

[Work In Progress]

3 hours ago, Denford said:

I've yet to see anybody other than Airfix in High Street Shops

this very much surprises me, as someone who has Revell, Tamiya, Italeri and other brands on sale a few hundred yards away alongside Airfix in a very ordinary high street in North Yorkshire, and a similar range in the next town's high street about eight miles down the road

[Dave Wilko]

37 minutes ago, Work In Progress said:

this very much surprises me, as someone who has Revell, Tamiya, Italeri and other brands on sale a few hundred yards away alongside Airfix in a very ordinary high street in North Yorkshire, and a similar range in the next town's high street about eight miles down the road

Sir,might one ask the names of these towns?

One visits North Yorkshire frequently during the summer months.

[Work In Progress]

To name but a few in North Yorkshire

https://www.monkbarmodelshop.co.uk/ in York

https://www.stocktonmodeller.co.uk/ in Stokesley

https://www.themodelcentre.com/ near Whitby

https://groversoptics.com/toys/ in Northallerton carries quite a lot

https://www.facebook.com/thirsktown.co.uk/?locale=en_GB The Artist's Palette in Thirsk carries several brands and a lot of relevant tools and supplies

A little further north https://northeastmodelcentre.co.uk/ is I think technically in Country Durham but not far anyway, and 

https://www.modelshopleeds.co.uk/ is West Yorkshire but only a few miles off the A1 and I am often in there for things as my creative partner in the film / tv game lives nearby.

 

https://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/county/northyorkshire lists some of these, and some others I don't know personally

Edited December 20, 2023 by Work In Progress

[Dave Wilko]

19 hours ago, Work In Progress said:

To name but a few in North Yorkshire

https://www.monkbarmodelshop.co.uk/ in York

https://www.stocktonmodeller.co.uk/ in Stokesley

https://www.themodelcentre.com/ near Whitby

https://groversoptics.com/toys/ in Northallerton carries quite a lot

https://www.facebook.com/thirsktown.co.uk/?locale=en_GB The Artist's Palette in Thirsk carries several brands and a lot of relevant tools and supplies

A little further north https://northeastmodelcentre.co.uk/ is I think technically in Country Durham but not far anyway, and 

https://www.modelshopleeds.co.uk/ is West Yorkshire but only a few miles off the A1 and I am often in there for things as my creative partner in the film / tv game lives nearby.

 

https://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/county/northyorkshire lists some of these, and some others I don't know personally

Thank you kindly Sir,though highly sensitive information and as such, must not fall into the hands of the Domestic/Financial Management .

Serious attempts would be made too steer one away from such establishments.............