Steve D Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Jochen Barett said: I agree, there is a good chance we see a "Sprengboje D". Thanks Jochen, it is the right size from what I can see. Below one added to the drawing and a photo, looks right to me Not sure what else they could be.. I wonder what colour they were. any idea? Cheers Steve Edited June 10, 2022 by Steve D 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Steve D said: +++ I wonder what colour they were. any idea? +++ No good deed goes unpunished. Maybe dark iron (or "brownish tire black" like modern German submarines RAL 8019) from the start https://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk_bruin_vlieland/2078051982 In case it isn't a lot of Sprengbojen it might be Reißbojen, Sprengbojen (blast buoys) designed to cut the sweeping gear with a blast, Reißbojen (ripping buoys) desing to rip/cut the sweeping gear. https://www.39-45.org/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=50179&start=10 esp.: https://www.39-45.org/files3945c/11434_S-boote (3).jpg I bet as soon as we see your "ready for insepction" thread, I will find some official documents on the color (and naturally it will be a different color). Maybe it was blueish black (tar black), it looks a bit like remains of blueish black over rust in daylight when found 75 years later: https://www.presseportal.de/blaulicht/pm/104233/5127554 https://www.flickr.com/photos/dirk_bruin_vlieland/13664177145/ This pic shows sweeping gear rather than mine laying gear, so maybe those encircled thingies are dan buoys to mark a swept passage (but this is total guesswork!). Edited June 10, 2022 by Jochen Barett typo 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arjan Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 Looking good Steve ! Some scans from a French book, I doubt if these are useful but who knows : Regards, Arjan 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 51 minutes ago, Arjan said: Some scans from a French book, A couple of those are golden Arjan, thanks Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 15 hours ago, Jochen Barett said: No good deed goes unpunished. I agree those are not explosive buoys, too small and why place them on the engine room casing roof? They probably are danbuoys but I don't have any information on Kriegsmarine danbuoys. I have this image which I'm guessing shows danbuoys But looking at this image makes it more puzzling still These things seem to be hooked on to the upper rail, perhaps the danbuoys came in a packed from with the rods separate for ease of handling and were assembled before use. They are very ungainly to have stored on deck otherwise. Anyone have any thoughts on this or illustrations? Cheers and thanks again for the interest in my little puzzle Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelholic Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 Sorry, can't help about the buoys. But I'm looking at the angle of the ladder down to the dingy. How would you brace such a thing? Surely the dingy tied alongside/ladder vertical would be much easier! Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Modelholic said: Surely the dingy tied alongside/ladder vertical would be much easier! I guess the slope probably makes it easier to manage the different rise and fall of the dinghy vs the boat. Cheers Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Steve D said: +++ I have this image which I'm guessing shows danbuoys But looking at this image makes it more puzzling still These things seem to be hooked on to the upper rail, perhaps the danbuoys came in a packed from with the rods separate for ease of handling and were assembled before use. They are very ungainly to have stored on deck otherwise. Anyone have any thoughts on this or illustrations? +++ Those are two different kinds of things (my thought). As usual, German craft will have sported different sets of equipment for different missions, so maybe you better build three Räumboote (one with Voith-Schneider Propeller just for the heck of it!), for three missions and locations (Baltic, Channel / off the Dutch coast, Mediterranean / Black Sea) and you can build mines, depth charges, dan buoys, Reißbojen, Sprengbojen, mine sweeping gear (Ottergerät https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Räumotter and Scherdrachengerät), smoke pots, 2cm AA, 3,7cm AA, "Dutch" machine guns (with flat drum on top), MG 34 (with drums to the sides), and so on. - Mine laying - Mine sweeping - Sub-hunting - General escort (Ooops, fourth one, maybe just like sub-hunting) I'm confident some day we will find a M.Dv. (Marine Dienstvorschrift) telling us everything about the color of the dan buoys https://www.superborg.de/mdv001.htm (unfortunately just a list, not a bunch of free .pdfs). I love "M.Dv. 838 Katholisches Feldgesangbuch" (catholic hymnal for use in the field) (excuse me for getting carried away, must have been the thought of Voith Schneider Propellers, will keep Markierungsbojen etc. in mind). Edited June 11, 2022 by Jochen Barett typo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 39 minutes ago, Jochen Barett said: mine sweeping gear (Ottergerät https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Räumotter and Scherdrachengerät), It was only a question Jochen, no need to get carried away.... I'll be modelling a minesweeper, not layer, it seems mine sweep gear information is available.. However, I want the plans to be as complete as I can make them, for others Thanks for your help, it is really appreciated Cheers Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 11, 2022 Share Posted June 11, 2022 1 hour ago, Steve D said: It was only a question Jochen, no need to get carried away.... +++ I'll try to "help you" anyway (in case I can help with a translation let me know, I'm not certified but I consider my translations to be better than google-translate) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 On 30/05/2022 at 14:12, Arjan said: Here are some pics from a Dutch photo archive, boats from various different batches. +++ Let me try to keep up the level of confusion. There are four kinds of dan buoys on this one: 2 ball, triangle pointing up 6 bottle pointing up 6 bottle pointing down 2 triangle pointing down, ball For a moment I was hoping the Kriegsmarine used a "similar but not the same" scheme for the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_mark but it seems they just used "the regular" system https://www.flickr.com/photos/kaiopai/15501326556/in/photostream/ to mark an Untiefe ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shallow_(underwater_relief) ) "nördl." = nördlich = to the North of ... "östl." = östlich = to the East of ... "südl." = südlich = to the South of ... "westl." = westlich = to the West of ... "auf" = on / right on top of this one seems to show "ball, ball" and "bottle pointing down" 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 13, 2022 Share Posted June 13, 2022 at 8:43 when a certain distance is cleared "Fahrwasserbojen" (fairway buoys) are dropped and at 10:20 they get picked up again, around 11:20 R-Boats go chasing a sub. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 14, 2022 Author Share Posted June 14, 2022 Wow Jochen, very cool video , R-23 is the earlier type but excellent background. Those buoys are very confusing, but now I'm thinking the items on the engine room casing roof might actually be boat fenders rather than danbuoys. There is insufficient height to store danbuoys there upright.... it would make sense to store the fenders out of the way on that railing Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 As of now I can not prove or disprove "fenders". In case you get a kick out of listening to a verrry strange language (it is navy-German and it is navy-German in staged films shown by unprofessional actors (real soldiers) it's funny!) I have a few more videos to offer (two more hours of "background" on mine sweeping (gear) and "history"). They are a few years too modern, but they show you the Räumgerät in post war times and one or the other piece of equipment looks just like many years before. Still black and white 1957 (you can bet some of the older men abord have some 17 years of experience in the trade) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz0fMvJB_A0 1968 some wearing a strange dress but look at the thing used to measure the tension on the sweeping rope at 3:17 (brass as we may see around 6:39 in the color film part a mentioned below) https://youtu.be/i87wN7csrs0?t=197 even later but color added part a: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzA5QOKFo6Q and part b (clearing mines with magnetic detonator) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRt5M_E1k-k To me it is interesting to see the modularity of the sweeping gear and how the parts get connected and used. The thingie to measure the tension is not seen in the late 30's video (I bet it was there but not shown to the general audience), but the Seilklemme (rope clamp) shown here https://youtu.be/6LZFF1tf_K0?t=468 can be found again post war https://youtu.be/rz0fMvJB_A0?t=1135 when doing the ropes, pay close attention, some ropes used in pairs are the same lay, some are the opposing lay https://youtu.be/rz0fMvJB_A0?t=1293 (it is pointed out by the speaker (without explanation for the reason), I wouldn't have noticed it, but any "epert" (read: fellow britmodeller) will immediately tell you all about it as soon as you show the completed Räumboot ready for inspection) OK, back to fenders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 15, 2022 Author Share Posted June 15, 2022 Thanks Jochen, I'll take a look. Regarding the lay of ropes, to my mind that comes way down the list after hulls that don't have cooling water openings, decks without any clutter, flags that stick out like cardboard and rivet heads 2 inches (sorry 50 mm ) or more across.... Don't even get me started on plastic stanchions For my own models I have two rules: They should seem realistic, ie give an impression of what the vessel might have looked like; and The closer you look with a human eye, the model should get better by revealing stuff not noticeable from afar, Just to say again, I really appreciate your help and support. The Kriegsmarine is not a subject I know anything about and I do want to make these drawings (and my own version of a build from them) as accurate as I can. Otherwise, what is the point? Cheers Steve 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jochen Barett Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 I have seen your S-46 and MTB 34 and can hardly agree more on your rules. That's probably what caused/causes me to try to "help" and push you that 0,03% further on details (can't help on the 80% for the hull shape). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted June 26, 2022 Author Share Posted June 26, 2022 In response to a request I posted, the German marine forum has just thrown up a link to an archive of high quality shipyard photographs covering R25 class boats. Incredibly useful stuff, of which at least 40 photographs are applicable to my little venture, amazing... However, it has sent me back to the drawing board on a number of details I'd got wrong, the venture continuers Meanwhile a further sneak preview of my work in progress, hopefully to illustrate the detail work involved. This is an extract from the GA sheet showing the stern deck layout with suggested locations for the minesweeping gear together with a scratch view showing the layout for mine-laying. All equipment shown is separately drawn on an equipment sheet with multiple views. It is soaking up hours and hours but I'm having so much fun with the project... BTW, the mine rails are a simple lazy mirror copy, I'll amend that on the final version When I've had time to absorb the new information, I'll post some examples of the new pictures, they are seriously cool Cheers Steve 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted July 27, 2022 Author Share Posted July 27, 2022 In case anyone was thinking I'd given this up, they couldn't be further from the truth. I've put hours into the drawings, below is a quick update of the current state of play. Main focus on the GA sheet (still incomplete) with a start made on the sections There has been quite a bit of re-work, in particular the wardroom/galley hatch was completely wrong and many additional details added. As you can see, I'm detailing each component with separate 3-dimension views (more will go on the sections sheet) with the intention for the drawings to stand alone as containing sufficient information to build a fine-scale model (together with photographs of course). Because I don't have full drawings to copy, each detail needs to be adjusted by reference to the (now a staggering) 120 photographs I've managed to source and copy. This takes a lot of time and modification but hopefully the result will be pretty accurate. This is becoming a labour of love, but one I'm really enjoying... 2-3 weeks more and I hope to commence the build with laser cut sections. The fourth sheet will be a frame cutting plan that I can modify directly into a form that 4D can cut from. Cheers Steve 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Courageous Posted July 29, 2022 Share Posted July 29, 2022 Amazing work on that plan. Stuart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted July 30, 2022 Author Share Posted July 30, 2022 18 hours ago, Courageous said: Amazing work on that plan. Thanks Stuart, I'm doing the best I can. Hopefully, if I produce a 1:72nd scale version, I can persuade some members to kit-bash an s-boat, the hulls are more or less the same Cheers Steve 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted August 5, 2022 Author Share Posted August 5, 2022 Just keeping this thread warm, here is a rather low-res sneak peek at some of the detail work on the drawings As I said before, it's become a labour of love... Cheers Steve 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 I've been reading "Hitler's forgotten flotillas" by Lawrence Preston about the Kriegsmarine Security Forces, very complete war diary covering all theatres. Combining this with "German Warships 1815 - 1945 Volume 2" by Erich Gröner is helping me sort out the variations of the early to mid-war types so I can decide exactly what I am drawing . That may sound strange, but everything about this voyage of discovery is odd, given I'm drawing a boat I don't actually have the plans for. To narrow things down from the plethora of subtypes, I've chosen the following parameters for the drawings and my model: Traditional propellers not Voith-Schneider propulsion The roll-over of the stern (I just like that detail...) No anchor hawse pipe, anchor runs out in a deck scallop to port (ditto) Three rudders 2 off Flak 2cm/c30 deck guns, fo'c'sle gun mounted direct to the deck, not on a raised platform Bridge with large square windows Confusingly, the class names and the vessel names over-lap, which doesn't exactly make matters easier So, to summarise where I am The R 21 class (built from 1936 to 1942) actually covered R21,22,23,24 and 41-43, 44- 150. Within that range, R41 - 52 and 53-72 meet #2, 3, and 5 while R89-101 fails #5 (raised fo'c'sle platform). However, it looks like most if not all had V-S propulsion so this fails criteria 1 & 4. It may be that the later vessels did not have V-S propulsion, but it's not clear when wartime shortages stopped them using this complex arrangement. This leaves the R25 class (see, I said it was confusing...) built from 1937 - 1943. of which there are no fewer than 7 sub-types Propulsion is once again not clear, but I think the R25 class vessels built during the war (from 151 onwards) had conventional propulsion. The early R25 class (R25-40) also had a conventional hawse pipe on the starboard side so fail test #3. So, this leaves me with R151 - 158 ticking every box. R159 - 193 are also potentials, the difference being the flak guns had gun shield. However, armament changed over time, so this can't be relied on. Some vessel mounted the 3.7 cm gun later in the war. Still, the drawing certainly complies wiht what I know about the R25 class of the number range 151 - 158. Why does any of this matter? Well, firstly I'd rather build an actual vessel than just a type, ideally one I have a picture of. I have a lot of pictures that tick all these boxes, though the vessels the pictures are attributed to doesn't appear to be fully consistent with Gröner and of course, you can't see the propellers in almost all pictures so that's not much help. Secondly I need the flotilla markings. Stuttgart.de has listings of the vessels serving in each flotilla, together with the area of operation and some but not all of the flotilla emblems. This is a rough compilation of 1 to 12, the early flotillas only. Now, R151 - 161 all served in the 7th flotilla in Norway, which is great because I have some good images of camouflage used in Norway but its frustrating that I don't have the emblem of the 7th. Anyone who can help, please do... I'm submitting this post for geek post of the month 2cm flak detail drawing coming on nicely, together with views of the later mount with a gun shield extrapolated from a great image I stumbled on, more later Cheers Steve 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitriy1967 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 Some sources on the Internet claim that the emblem of the 7th flotilla was "Bull Scapa Flow". But I'm not good at it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitriy1967 Posted August 18, 2022 Share Posted August 18, 2022 But perhaps this emblem was only on submarines. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve D Posted August 18, 2022 Author Share Posted August 18, 2022 46 minutes ago, Dmitriy1967 said: But perhaps this emblem was only on submarines. I’m afraid so, each class of vessel had their own flotilla designation and associated emblem but thanks cheers Steve 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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