Hawker Hurricanes around the world

[Graham Boak]

By the end of 1940 1 SAAF was operating Hurricanes out of Post Sudan and Azzoza.   3 SAAF was forming in Kenya but being depleted by transferring aircraft to keep 1 Sq. up to strength.  Before this, one RAF Hurricane, "Colley's Battleship", was flying around the Middle East trying to give the impression of a larger force.  It may have visited the Sudan but I don't know any itinerary of its movements.  Whether this one or a SAAF example. it will have a 3-blade DH variable-pitch propeller.  There was a very nice booklet published last year on the SAAF operations, with particular reference to the Hurricane.  Colour scheme will have been Temperate Land (Dark Green/Dark Earth) over Sky.

 

PS after the Italian surrender in East Africa, Khartoum was the base for an RAF fighter OTU so Hurricanes will have been regular sights - I'm not sure of the exact dates but later in 1941 for sure.

 

EDIT   Collie's Battleship.  Thanks Sandeha.

[Sandeha Lynch]

1 hour ago, Graham Boak said:

By the end of 1940 1 SAAF was operating Hurricanes out of Post Sudan and Azzoza.   3 SAAF was forming in Kenya but being depleted by transferring aircraft to keep 1 Sq. up to strength.  Before this, one RAF Hurricane, "Colley's Battleship", was flying around the Middle East trying to give the impression of a larger force.  It may have visited the Sudan but I don't know any itinerary of its movements.  Whether this one or a SAAF example. it will have a 3-blade DH variable-pitch propeller.  There was a very nice booklet published last year on the SAAF operations, with particular reference to the Hurricane.  Colour scheme will have been Temperate Land (Dark Green/Dark Earth) over Sky.

 

PS after the Italian surrender in East Africa, Khartoum was the base for an RAF fighter OTU so Hurricanes will have been regular sights - I'm not sure of the exact dates but later in 1941 for sure.

I've found it on Google as Collies - the nickname being a reference to Air Cmdr. Raymond Collishaw. CO of 202 Group in Egypt. It sounds like an interesting one to follow up.

 

The negs are in sleeves but handwritten notes are few, and I only have the dates from his log. My dad left for Greece at the end of 1940 and then only went back top Egypt before leaving Africa for the last time in '42. I'm sure if he had seen L1669 he would have seized the chance to get a shot of it. Cheers, Graham.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

1 hour ago, Sandeha Lynch said:

I've found it on Google as Collies - the nickname being a reference to Air Cmdr. Raymond Collishaw. CO of 202 Group in Egypt. It sounds like an interesting one to follow up.

 

The negs are in sleeves but handwritten notes are few, and I only have the dates from his log. My dad left for Greece at the end of 1940 and then only went back top Egypt before leaving Africa for the last time in '42. I'm sure if he had seen L1669 he would have seized the chance to get a shot of it. Cheers, Graham.

@tonyot built this in case you want to see a version: 

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Just now, ModelingEdmontonian said:

@tonyot built this in case you want to see a version: 

 

I note that @Sandeha Lynch's photo's Hurricane has tail flash and Collies battleship per @tonyot's photo doesn't, so maybe that isn't the same plane? Or tail flash added later after repair?

[Sandeha Lynch]

When I look more closely I might sometimes see the obvious so I rescanned the neg at  a larger size this morning. You can see how damaged it is. The strip is actually a bit twisted.

 

k016 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

The Hurricane is on the same negative strip as several photos showing Air Cmdr. Raymond Collishaw. It seems he was on a visit and using Bristol Blenheim IV, serial V5870. The aircraft was possibly 'between' squadrons at this time.

 

k019 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

I can only guess that Collishaw had come to Sudan from Egypt, but I don't know whether my dad was at Carthago, Summit, or Khartoum when the sequence of shots was taken. I do know that someone was standing next to my dad and took another photo a split second before or after. I know this other has been published but I don't know where (yet). Someone must have an ORB somewhere to help date it. There are no easily dateable shots nearby in the neg book. The other images are in my Flickr folder.

 

So all of this lends support to the possibility that the Hurricane may well be Collies Battleship. I found one description and colouring of L1669 from Feb 1941 in Greece.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-80Sqn/pages/Artwork-Hurricane-I-Trop-RAF-80Sqn-J.-Pattle-L1669-Collies-Battleship-Paramithia-Greece-Feb-1941-0A.html

 

But the fin flash detail is relevant, yes.

 

Many thanks to all who have chipped in here. And especially for the link to Tonyot's thread - bang on the nose!

[Graham Boak]

The fin flash will have started appearing in the ME some time after May 1st 1940, which is when it was introduced.  It is very unlikely that it would have been painted out and a prewar squadron marking added for 1941.  Never say never, of course, but you can add an adjective to the "unlikely" that is not permitted on this board.  Later today I'll check the Air Britain serial books to see if L1669 was allocated to 80 Sq.  However there are a number of gaps in the surviving records for aircraft movements in this theatre.  In his recent multi-volume magnum opus on the ME Air War, Chris Shores seems to take some pleasure in pointing this out when he uses Hurricane photos.

[Troy Smith]

4 hours ago, Sandeha Lynch said:

I found one description and colouring of L1669 from Feb 1941 in Greece.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-80Sqn/pages/Artwork-Hurricane-I-Trop-RAF-80Sqn-J.-Pattle-L1669-Collies-Battleship-Paramithia-Greece-Feb-1941-0A.html

profile looks to be rubbish,  the long Rotol type spinner is certainly wrong....

 

evidently copied from this

http://wpalette.com/system/pictures/f/d/7/7/32675/original.jpg

 

which is from the 1960s Aircraft in profile series, source of still of much confusion and otherwise undocumented profiles

 

 

As stated, the standard scheme was upper in Dark Green/Dark Earth,   even in Greece Hurricanes were not in the desert scheme shown above

according to this

https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/15123

 

L1669 was written off in Sep 1940

the only image I knew of is this

 

 

But then doing some searches...

Looking at @tonyot model, 

he posted this 

OK, 

 and while searching I turned up this

 

 

http://raf-112-squadron.org/images/hurricaneL1669.jpg

"Exceptional photo of Hurricane L1669, possibly parked beside a Gladiator

was sent in by Joe Macdonald, son of LAC Murdoch (Mac) Macdonald, RAF 535577, RAF 112 Sqdn, 25 Sept 1939,  Flt Lt C H Fry, 112 Squadron, arrived on attachment to 80 Squadron. He brought L1669, it had been shipped in a crate from UK, was assembled at Helwan, and Charles flew it into history as the first person to take-off and land a Hurricane on Egyptian soil (sand).

In September he undertook desert suitability trials on  Hurricane (L1669), which they had picked up at Amiriya.

L1669 was the first Hurricane to be fitted with  a tropical air filter and after evaluation by No. 80 Squadron RAF, flew operationally with No. 274 Squadron RAF  in Egypt, with whom it became known as “Collie’s battleship”. It finally crashed on undershooting a landing at Amiriya on 30 September 1940. Written on the back of Joes photo is Amiriya 1939"

 

from

http://raf-112-squadron.org/marchofthegladiators.html

 

So, it looks like L1669 got painted in the desert scheme in the middle east. 

 

One that needs some more digging.

 

 

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

In his recent multi-volume magnum opus on the ME Air War, Chris Shores seems to take some pleasure in pointing this out when he uses Hurricane photos.

Do you mean this series Graham, 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mediterranean-Air-War-1940-1945-January/dp/1908117079

 

Is there any particular volume which in particular has these Hurricane photos? 

TIA  

[Graham Boak]

At least one Hurricane flew to Greece in the Desert Scheme, but certainly not many.  However there were Hurricanes in the Western Desert/Egypt in DS well before that.  I've seen no comment on what was going on, but possibly spares were kept for operation in greener areas of the ME.  Either that or new, as yet unrepainted, examples were given to the Greece-bound units.  I don't see them taking time out to repaint their operational desert individual airframes.

 

Re Med. Air War: I would say 2 and 3, but I didn't keep a check and they could in any of the first four (as published so far).   Excuse me for not hauling them down and browsing through well over 1000 pages for a small handful of photos.  I would perhaps another time, but I've a small stack of new books that have recently arrived and you will understand the priorities.  I think that when Vol 5 arrives, and has been read, the time will come to pick up vol.1 and start reading them through...  Or is there also a Vol.6 to come?

[Sandeha Lynch]

This is a shot of Collishaw during a visit to Sudan. A friend passed me the image (and I'm waiting to hear back) but do you happen to recognise it? It appears to have been published somewhere/sometime.

 

image007 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

What's interesting is that it had to have been taken within moments of one of my dad's shots.

 

k018 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

This is the third or fourth negative in the same strip of six that has the image of the Hurricane.

 

If anyone recognises the source of the published photo it may help determine a date for the visit of Collie and the Hurrie.

 

(I appear to be taking the thread off course ... apols, normal service should be resumed asap. 🤐)

[tonyot]

9 minutes ago, Sandeha Lynch said:

 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by tonyot

[ModelingEdmontonian]

19 minutes ago, Sandeha Lynch said:

(I appear to be taking the thread off course ... apols, normal service should be resumed asap. 🤐)

Don't apologize! Quite fascinating, and a Hurricane in Sudan certainly qualifies as a Hurricane "around the world"  (even if it is wearing UK markings)

[ModelingEdmontonian]

I was hoping to have a more exciting update now (like Argentina done!), but, alas, it isn't to be.  Argentina and Poland have had continued progress on camo (despite using rattle cans, I'm having to brush it all as well), and stabilizers attached and filled. Argentina is close, and I went ahead and attached the exhausts, which proved more challenging than I expected! Not quite Poland level (which I still haven't completely resolved), but nonetheless I'm annoyed by AZ now that they couldn't get the exhausts right! At least I know what to expect on the next three...

 

 In Argentina's case, a hobby knife did the trick mostly (still not a perfect fit). So, Argentina has stabilizers, exhausts, and rear wheel. I'm sealing this all in with a clear coat before attempting the yellow leading edges (which I am dreading!).

 

 

Meanwhile, the first four of phase 2 had a bath.

 

 

From top left clockwise we have Ireland (Arma Mk I); Kingdom of Yugoslavia (Airfix Mk I early); (Poland's 5-spoke wheels making a special appearance!); Soviet Union (AZ Mk IId); and Belgium (Airfix Mk I early). 

 

Those 5-spoke wheels are stolen from Arma's Eastern Front Mk I kit. At this point Poland has taken an air filter, prop, and spinner from Airfix, these wheels from Arma, UC doors from Airfix, rear wheel from Airfix, landing lights from the AZ Mk IId kit, IP decal from an extra decal sheet, and the canopy is a mashup from Arma (rear) and Airfix (front)! And at this point I can't find the original antenna mast, so that might be coming from elsewhere too! I suppose that isn't exactly OOB anymore, is it?

[Sandeha Lynch]

I've been given a little more information on Collishaw and his Hurricane. It doesn't confirm anything, but it narrows the field a little.

 

The printed photo I posted of Collishaw comes from: “Flying to victory, Raymond Collishaw and the Western Desert Campaign 1940-41”, Mike Bechthold, Univerity of Oklahoma Press, 2017, and is credited as : "Courtesy of Canadian Department of National Defence (PMR 71-771)”.

 

According to “The Hawker Hurricane” (Francis K. Mason, Aston Publication, 1987), the plane arrived in 1939 for tropical trials and it arrived in Khartoum, not in Egypt. 

 

What are the odds that my dad had seen this a/c and Collishaw (adjacent negatives on a roll of film) in Khartoum sometime between May 1st 1940 (the earliest likely painting of the fin flash) and June 1940 ... by which time it had joined 80 Sqn in Egypt? 

 

Possible, but it's a slim window.

 

Anyway, never mind. I have just ordered an Airfix Mk1 Hurricane kit. It may end up as generic but with a tropical filter built on!

 

As you were. 😎

[Graham Boak]

There is a tropical filter in the Arma Hobby kit, so people are likely to have one spare.  The commonly available filter in kits of the Mk.II is the wrong shape for a Mk.I.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Yellow edging underway on Argentina; the edge is framed on the outer ends by navigation lights (silver paint, in this case) and red dope over the machine gun on the inner ends, so I don't have to worry about squaring it off perfectly at the ends.

 

 

In other news, I took my little kiddo to the local playground and decided to work on some of Soviet Union's (AZ Mk IId) resin pieces there at a cement picnic table (you can see the strip below--just the seat and radiator intake are used on this kit.

 

 

It was a good idea, mostly, in that it was actually a good work surface and the big outdoors made the resin work fairly safe and comfortable. But when I got to the wheels (I'm using this Aires set I threw into one of my online orders), of course I drop one and it rolls away. I was above cobblestones and didn't figure it would be that difficult to find... twenty minutes later I did find it, but that was the end of my progress at the playground!

 

 

That said, they are nice wheels and an improvement on the AZ versions (although Arma's are still the best I've seen)!

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Certainly not perfect, but for my first attempt at painting on yellow leading edges, I'm happy enough (I built a Hawker Typhoon last year, but Airfix included decals for the leading edges, which although frustrating to apply worked out really nicely). Obviously I'll need to touch up the port wing's upper where it bled, but here she is with masking off.

 

 

I sanded the leading edge lightly with those pads @2996 Victor recommended to me to smooth it out, but decided to start decaling next as opposed to touching up with paint. My rationale was that I would likely find other areas to touch up as I decal, but honestly I was sick of touching up and wanted to see it with decals on! These are the decals I am working with (sorry the photo quality is so poor):

And, again, here is the guide on the box:

You'll note that while some stenciling is included, along with numbering, the guide doesn't show the stencils applied. I started guessing, but then got the better idea of using Google, and this website helped a lot! https://hgwmodels.cz/en/mokre-transfery/549-hurricane-mk-ii-stencils-132-232013.html It's as if AZ included about half the stencils, so especially on the underside certain spots got stencils on one side and not the other, so really maybe I should have skipped the stencils altogether. I don't feel they add much in 1/72, but I also figured if they were there I may as well apply them!

 

Other than how closely crammed together the decals are, I was fairly impressed with how the stencils went on, and so moved on to the more exciting stuff! The RAF roundels and serial were nice enough, but the Argentine roundels and fin flash less so. The fin flash is too big, so I had to cut it and then it teared on both sides as well. We'll see how it settles in, I think it will be ok. The roundels held together alright, but I'm finding the white overly translucent and overall feel very fragile as well such that I'm hesitant to work with them too much (I need them to settle in around the silly raised line AZ put on the fuselage).

 

Next I borrowed from extra Arma decals for the walkway black and machine gun dope (cut an Mk I strip in half, more or less, to cover the single machine gun). These went on nicely as I expected. Here she is with everything applied.

 

Still lots to do to clean up paintwork and get the decals to settle in, but at least it's looking a bit more interesting now! An oddball for sure, but you can sort of imagine what's going on here in terms of gradually turning an RAF plane into an Argentine one (Argentina in the back, RAF in the front!). That being said, if this is what is happening, I don't think the serial numbers should be on anymore, or, if so, they should be different (i.e., not RAF) serials. But, oh well, I mostly opted to trust AZ on all of this.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Ok, @Troy Smith, @Graham Boak, etc.: what do you know about antenna masts? Trying to figure out what the early Mk I's should look like for Poland, but generally curious as well.

 

There are evidently at least two types (although I'm inclined to think maybe more than two), one that is more or less a stick in the air (which is included in Arma's Mk IIc kit), and one with a bit more going on (included in Arma's Mk I kit). Australia's is correct as I compare to photos:

 

 

But I think I may have gotten USA's wrong (in which case the kit included the wrong version, I believe).

 

And does Argentina even have one!?

 

 

The Airifx Mk I artwork seems to show a very square version.

 

Anyway, any thoughts on what Poland's should look like and more generally what all was happening with Hurricane antenna masts?

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

what do you know about antenna masts? Trying to figure out what the early Mk I's should look like for Poland, but generally curious as well.

 

There are evidently at least two types (although I'm inclined to think maybe more than two)

There was a pole attenna on the L****, N**** and the first 100 (approx) of the P**** series.   That is what would have been on the Polish aircraft.

It seems the aerial wire ran down inside the pole.

L1592 

 

From http://primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_mk1_l1592/  A lot of great photos, especially of the underside.

 

then there was a switch to a more streamlined attenna, this had a triangular tag, for the TR9D radio,

 

 

from

https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/76586-hawker-sea-hurricane/

Again, a mass of great detail shots.

 

with the switch the the   TR 1133, no aerial line was needed, and the tag was eliminated, but the fixing point was retained,

at least when this, BE500, was photographed.

Hurricane pilot, c1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

has some info on radio sets. 

https://www.qsl.net/pe1ngz/airforce/airforce-raf/raf-comm-tr.html

 

@Graham Boak I'm sure would be better on the technical details of the sets.

 

HTH

[ModelingEdmontonian]

5 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

There was a pole attenna on the L****, N**** and the first 100 (approx) of the P**** series.   That is what would have been on the Polish aircraft.

 

then there was a switch to a more streamlined attenna, this had a triangular tag, for the TR9D radio,

 

with the switch the the   TR 1133, no aerial line was needed, and the tag was eliminated, but the fixing point was retained,

Excellent, @Troy Smith, this is very helpful! So three versions it is! Now to find the right type for Poland...

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Argentina is really dragging and starting to frustrate me. Decals never quite settled like I'd like, despite Microsol and pins, etc. After a matt clear coat I was hoping they would look ok, but the serials in particular are bad news:

 

 

I have the same problem with some of the stencils on the port side.

 

 

At this point I'm inclined to paint over them, since I don't think the serials should be on this plane anyway and the stencils won't be missed. The roundels are not terrible and the fin flash after a lot of work and repair is satisfactory too--although all told I'm very disappointed in the decal quality. Certainly a few mistakes/sloppiness of my own showing up here, too, but right now I just want to get her done and move on! In the meantime here she is with canopy and aerial mast dry fitted.

 

 

I STILL have paint touch ups to do in addition to painting over ugly decals, and after a final clear coat I'll be painting on the navigation lights with silver, but she is finally getting close! I won't do much weather at all on this given that I assume it would have been quite clean when it was photographed in this half-and-half livery. 

[Troy Smith]

On 21/05/2021 at 20:24, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Decals never quite settled like I'd like, despite Microsol and pins, etc.

try the bedding in Kleer technique.

 

 

also,  for tougher/thicker decals, warm to actually quite hot water,  I have used a filer coffee machine hotplate with large metal jar lid (they are plastic lined) of water, which softens them.    You saw my OOB Hurricane build, the roundels and codes are one decal applied like this.  

On 19/05/2021 at 15:43, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Now to find the right type for Poland...

Pole attenna. (pardon the pun)  Just use a piece of round plastic or wire.

HTH

[ModelingEdmontonian]

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

try the bedding in Kleer technique.

 

also,  for tougher/thicker decals, warm to actually quite hot water,  I have used a filer coffee machine hotplate with large metal jar lid (they are plastic lined) of water, which softens them.    You saw my OOB Hurricane build, the roundels and codes are one decal applied like this.  

 

You may be on to something, Troy. Usually I use this Vallejo gloss coat (https://www.amazon.ca/AV-Acrylic-Aerosol-Spray-Varnish/dp/B002Z8H3WI)--I assume the effect is similar to Klear? This time I settled for the satin clear coat because my gloss was empty, so that may well have been my problem!

 

I do use very hot water and love how well that works, although to be fair it starts very hot and ends more luke-warmish by the time I'm near the end of decaling. We'll see on the next AZ kits how the decals go on with a good gloss coat underneath. Fingers crossed...

 

13 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

Pole attenna. (pardon the pun)  Just use a piece of round plastic or wire.

Love the pun  I found a later Mk I version mast that with some sanding looks good enough for my purposes.

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Ok, calling Argentina done, not because she's anywhere near perfect, but because I want to move on! Given the quality wouldn't do an RFI except I think it is a fascinating subject so deserves a post for that reason!

 

 I'll share a couple photos here:

 

And here are Australia, USA, and Argentina, representing Australia, North America, and South America:

 

 

Halfway through phase one of this project; three more continents to go! Ultimately Africa, Asia, and obviously Europe will have more than one "entry" overall, but Australia, North America, and South America will only have these. While Canada and New Zealand operated Hurricanes (and Canada even built them!), because those air forces used RAF markings they won't get a feature; and this single Hurricane was the only one to ever fly for a South American air force.

[Troy Smith]

8 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

although to be fair it starts very hot and ends more luke-warmish by the time I'm near the end of decaling.

hence the coffee machine hotplate to keep it hot.   

You can get coffee mug warmers, which would do the same job

https://convergentcoffee.com/coffee/mug-warmer/

 

I'm sure a cheap basic one would do fine.  The coffee machiine is fine if you want to decal in the kitchen.....

8 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

I assume the effect is similar to Klear?

you'd have to experiment, but I'd presume so.    Kleer became popular as it is a self levelling acrylic varnish...for floors, so it's tough.   And as it not meant for modellers, it's sold in big bottles....  The other option is to use gloss or semi gloss paint,  Gunze aqueous is semi gloss.  I've been pondering on Dark Earth,  as when I last looked the Vallejo English Uniform had come out lighter on the model than the  brushed out chip, and I tried really stirrng my Xtracrylix, bit of bent wire in a cordless drill really helped.  I have some random Gunze I picked up cheap, which I tested, and it brushed really well with flat brush and water with flow improver, so I might get some...

 

Glad the project in moving on well.

cheers

T

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 5/24/2021 at 4:05 AM, Troy Smith said:

hence the coffee machine hotplate to keep it hot.   

You can get coffee mug warmers, which would do the same job

https://convergentcoffee.com/coffee/mug-warmer/

Makes sense! I actually bought one of these for my wife a couple of months ago to keep her coffee warm at her work desk in the middle of winter... Probably gauche to borrow a present I gave her? 🤔

 

On 5/24/2021 at 4:05 AM, Troy Smith said:

you'd have to experiment, but I'd presume so.    Kleer became popular as it is a self levelling acrylic varnish...for floors, so it's tough.   And as it not meant for modellers, it's sold in big bottles....

I'm not sure we have Klear in Canada, but presumably there are similar products. Look like we have something called Pledge that would be the same thing: https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/pledge-floor-wax-795-ml-0530350p.0530350.html#store=467.