Hawker Hurricanes around the world

[ModelingEdmontonian]

3 minutes ago, Beard said:

Also, I think that photo may be of a Hurricane I, not a IIb (as per the decals). I'm sure Troy will be along shortly with more information.

You're right. The Mk IIb is referencing the VVS one I think.

[Troy Smith]

5 hours ago, Beard said:

Also, I think that photo may be of a Hurricane I, not a IIb (as per the decals).

the IIb is the VVS one.  I did post up images and discuss these decals at some point with @ModelingEdmontonian

5 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Look for the Ducimus booklet on RAF Fighter Camouflage and Markings: The Hawker Hurricane. 

here - https://boxartden.com/reference/gallery/index.php/Camouflage-Markings/Hawker-Hurricane

still maybe the best primer overall. 

6 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Do you know if there was a standard RAF (or specifically Hawker Hurricane) squadron code lettering size? I've found some information on serial numbers, but not squadron codes.

 

Serials were 6 inch on the L and N series, otherwise 8 inch, 'font' can vary.

Squadron codes.  They settle down a bit later in the war, but say 38-41....   No, for every   'rule' there is an exception,  approach on  a case by case basis.  There isn't even a running order specified..... 

HTH 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

21 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

the IIb is the VVS one.  I did post up images and discuss these decals at some point with @ModelingEdmontonian

 

Exactly, thus how I know I need an "S" rather than the "G" they put on the decals 

 

After blending in the cannon fairings on Iran (Legato Mk IIc)...

 

 

... I touched up the camo and used my new favourite technique: Pledge!

 

 

I attached exhaust stacks and the rear wheel, and started hacking up this very tightly packed Kitsworld decal sheet. What a chore! I opted to use most of the stencils from here as well since the Legato kit decals does not include them.

 

 

I also borrowed the walkway black from an Arma kit. One day I will need to paint those (or paint some tape black?) because I'm going to run out of decals, but I may as well use decals as long as I have them! Here she is fresh after decal application. They all went on very nicely.

 

 

Doesn't look exactly like the picture, but I'm happy with how she's coming along.

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Iran's UC went together with little difficulty, and I rubbed some pastel dust on the tires. Then I weathered the underside with panel liner and an acrylic burnt umber wash. On top I used some oil for the exhaust stains (first time I've done any weathering with oil) and attached the prop and antenna mast before giving it a matt clear coat to seal it all in. Canopy popped on with some Kristal Klear around the gaps, and some silver paint to simulate navigation lights, and she's done! This is my third AZ kit (this one branded Legato), and I would definitely say it's the best of the three.

 

 

Updated group photo:

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

I've been away for a week so no progress to report, but I FINALLY received my AZ Mk IV kit from Ukraine (took three months!!) that will provide me with my Republic of Yugoslavia Hurricane (hopefully featuring rockets!). 

 

 

This means I now have all the kits I have ordered, so here they all are! The only duplicates in terms of boxings are the three Airfix Mk. Is.

 

 

I believe I need another Mk. I metal wing and a Mk IIb to finish phase 3 of this project (the "Axis" phase), and those will almost certainly be Armas in different boxings. I'll order at a later date once I have a better idea of where I'm at/see if I need to order any additional parts!

[Dandie Dinmont]

What a great project this is! I’m amazed you have any time to get actual modelling done, given all the complexities of working out which kits, parts from those kits and markings you need. 
 

Craig. 

[2996 Victor]

9 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

I believe I need another Mk. I metal wing and a Mk IIb to finish phase 3 of this project

You'll be surprised by how many more you actually need I've found that, no matter how many Hurricane kits I have, I always need at least two more

 

Great work, ME, looking forward to the next instalment.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Sandeha Lynch]

On 14/05/2021 at 08:17, Sandeha Lynch said:

When I look more closely I might sometimes see the obvious so I rescanned the neg at  a larger size this morning. You can see how damaged it is. The strip is actually a bit twisted.

 

k016 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

The Hurricane is on the same negative strip as several photos showing Air Cmdr. Raymond Collishaw. It seems he was on a visit and using Bristol Blenheim IV, serial V5870. The aircraft was possibly 'between' squadrons at this time.

 

k019 by Sandeha Lynch, on Flickr

 

I can only guess that Collishaw had come to Sudan from Egypt, but I don't know whether my dad was at Carthago, Summit, or Khartoum when the sequence of shots was taken. I do know that someone was standing next to my dad and took another photo a split second before or after. I know this other has been published but I don't know where (yet). Someone must have an ORB somewhere to help date it. There are no easily dateable shots nearby in the neg book. The other images are in my Flickr folder.

 

So all of this lends support to the possibility that the Hurricane may well be Collies Battleship. I found one description and colouring of L1669 from Feb 1941 in Greece.

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Hurricane/RAF-80Sqn/pages/Artwork-Hurricane-I-Trop-RAF-80Sqn-J.-Pattle-L1669-Collies-Battleship-Paramithia-Greece-Feb-1941-0A.html

 

But the fin flash detail is relevant, yes.

 

Many thanks to all who have chipped in here. And especially for the link to Tonyot's thread - bang on the nose!

 

Just a wee update on my Hurricane photo and the strip of negatives that includes Air Cmdr Raymond Collishaw. I was wrong in my assumptions. If I had proper archivist skills I'd have noted straight away that the strip was shot on Kodak Plus X. 

 

My dad used a lot of Panatomic X, Isopan F, Super XX, and even some DuPont Nitrate film, but use of Plus X was rare. The shots from the Maryland and the Lysander which were most definitely taken in Egypt in 1941 were also on Plus X, so it's quite likely that this places Collishaw, the Blenheim IV and the Hurricane at Ma'aten Bagush airbase. And the Hurricane itself is probably impossible to identify as by 1941 there were a good many of them operating in North Africa with 73 and 274 squadrons.

 

I always say, "research is its own reward". 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

On 6/25/2021 at 3:19 AM, Sandeha Lynch said:

 

Just a wee update on my Hurricane photo and the strip of negatives that includes Air Cmdr Raymond Collishaw. I was wrong in my assumptions. If I had proper archivist skills I'd have noted straight away that the strip was shot on Kodak Plus X. 

 

My dad used a lot of Panatomic X, Isopan F, Super XX, and even some DuPont Nitrate film, but use of Plus X was rare. The shots from the Maryland and the Lysander which were most definitely taken in Egypt in 1941 were also on Plus X, so it's quite likely that this places Collishaw, the Blenheim IV and the Hurricane at Ma'aten Bagush airbase. And the Hurricane itself is probably impossible to identify as by 1941 there were a good many of them operating in North Africa with 73 and 274 squadrons.

 

I always say, "research is its own reward". 

So, @Sandeha Lynch, is a model Hurricane still forthcoming?

[ModelingEdmontonian]

It has been a slow week, but I called it a day on the upper camo on Egypt (Arma Mk IIc) and she got a coat of Pledge. I opted to keep her in desert scheme, despite arguments against this. It seems (?) quite certain that at least some of REAF's Spitfires in the mid/late-1940s wore desert camo, plus white "M" definitely does not have a yellow leading edge, which struck me as possibly a clue that it was not DFS. Mostly, however, I just didn't want to repaint what I had begun 

 

 

I decaled the underside, and also began a little weathering around the wheel well.

 

 

There is some confusion over the orientation of the REAF roundels, but I never found a photo showing anything other than oriented to the right, and it just looks right to me, despite what AZ shows on the box.

 

 

I am using the AZ decals for the REAF markings, and much to my surprise they have been beautiful--maybe best decals I have ever worked with! I am also using the Arma stencils/walkway black, and I stole a white stripe from an Airfix Nakajima Kate kit. It is not exactly wide enough, but I am happy with it as I wanted to avoid painting that. It was not quite long enough so I will have to paint the rest of it underneath. and work it into the fuselage a bit better with Microsol and a pin. Once it's settled, I'll apply the serial numbers over top.

 

[Sandeha Lynch]

4 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

So, @Sandeha Lynch, is a model Hurricane still forthcoming?

Oh, most certainly. I've already picked up an Airfix Mk1 kit, but it may sit and mature a while as I work on other things, and then I have to decide which North African RAF squadron to attach it to. I now believe that the negative strip showing a Hurricane, a Blenheim IV, and Air Cmdr Raymond Collishaw will most likely have been shot at Ma'aten Bagush airbase sometime in 1941. Collishaw was operating from there and my dad worked there for much of the time between May and October '41.

 

If you have a list of fighter squadrons for that place and time it would be nice ... but it will still be a while before I begin on this !!

[Wulfman]

Have you ordered the new Zvezda IIc ?

 

Wulfman

[ModelingEdmontonian]

13 hours ago, Sandeha Lynch said:

If you have a list of fighter squadrons for that place and time it would be nice ... but it will still be a while before I begin on this !!

Can't help you with this, I'm afraid, but looking forward to seeing a North African 'cane!

[ModelingEdmontonian]

10 hours ago, Wulfman said:

Have you ordered the new Zvezda IIc ?

 

Wulfman

I haven't, and I don't think I need any more Mk IIcs. Curious about it though... Lots of brands offering Mk IIcs in the last ten years, I feel... Airfix, Mastercraft, Revell, Smer, Arma, Legato, now Zvezda... yes, I would say that is a lot! Must be the most popular version to model, I guess?

[Troy Smith]

20 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Must be the most popular version to model, I guess?

I think it was the most produced version.  After that the IIB. (including the Canadian XII)   The last Hurricane batches built were IIc only.

I've not sat down and done totals, but I know that only 300 IID and 600 Mk.IV were built. 

Plenty of marking options for the IIc as a result. 

 

[ModelingEdmontonian]

18 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

I think it was the most produced version.  After that the IIB. (including the Canadian XII)   The last Hurricane batches built were IIc only.

I've not sat down and done totals, but I know that only 300 IID and 600 Mk.IV were built. 

Plenty of marking options for the IIc as a result. 

 

I think Mk I would be most produced if you count fabric AND metal winged. Otherwise I think Mk IIc beats out metal-winged Mk Is by several hundred (if Wikipedia can be trusted?).

 

Interesting there were so few Mk IIds, and something like 20% ended up in VVS I think.

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

Interesting there were so few Mk IIds, and something like 20% ended up in VVS I think.

 

well, not really. the IID was a very specialised version,  as it's only operational load was the 40mm cannons.  The VVS apparently only got 30 Mk.IV's.

The VVS got later IID's, (2nd batch KW/KX serials) 

But these were being built in parallel with the Mk.IV in this batch, and these are the ones the VVS got, as they Mk.IV was more useful for the RAF.

Possibly using up D wings already made.  The RAF did get some of this batch as well,  these IID's mostly ended up in SEAC. 

 

The IID/IV are poorly understood it, I still have questions, 

The more I looked into the IId vs IV,   the earliest IID's,  the ones with BN***/BP*** serials,  and maybe the HV/HW ones,  did not have added armour.

 

All IV's have the armour, this is both internal, and the radiator bath, cockpit decking and windscreen with all bullet proof 'glass' , as in the side parts.

The later IID, in the KX/KW batch,  from photos, in particular the two at the NII VVS, their test centre,  clearly show this added armour. 

 and as far as I can see, they are the same externally as IV fuselage, the difference being the IV has  additional wiring/controls in the cockpit for the different loads carried.

 

This 'early' vs 'late' IID  difference is only mentioned in one sentence in the manual,  which seems usually not to be noticed, or commented on otherwise.   (that said I have not checked the AZ kit too see.... it took me a while to READ the blinkin' manual again!)  

 

There is reference in the manual to an "early Mk.IV" , which is to do with the wing, and some  paneling.  

I'm still unsure about the details/differences between a IID and IV wing in panelling,  the IV wing has extra fittings to fit with 40MM guns/rockets/drop tanks/bomb carriers.

 

More information required.....  As always, the quest continues.

 

 

2 hours ago, ModelingEdmontonian said:

I think Mk I would be most produced if you count fabric AND metal winged. Otherwise I think Mk IIc beats out metal-winged Mk Is by several hundred (if Wikipedia can be trusted?).

Didn't think too look!   

I can't a table in a book of the totals, but more me not paying full attention.

 

I do have a Hurricane production list, which I shall look at later.

cheers

T

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Always interesting insights, @Troy Smith!

[ModelingEdmontonian]

@dogsbody was kind enough to share the "G-AFKX" codes from an Iliad decal sheet with me so that I can fix the bare starboard side where the AZ decal disintegrated.

 

 

The decals look great, but I am realizing there is clearly a difference in typeface between the AZ and Iliad.

 

 

Looks to me like Iliad has it right compared to the photo below and AZ has done with something too "bold" (although would not have realized this if I did not compare to the Iliad decals!). 

 

 

Now, lazy me is unlikely to bother fix the port side because wrong or not I am fairly happy with how it looks at the moment and I am really not sure what I would do anyway. I think there is no hope of removing the decal that is on there, and successfully painting over something that dark and bold would seem challenging. But, I am also curious to hear other thoughts!

[bigbadbadge]

Got to say, would also not have noticed if you hadn't mentioned it.  You only look at one side at time and if you were to show someone my bet is that they wouldn't notice.

It does look good interesting all over silver scheme.

Chris

[2996 Victor]

It's a great-looking scheme, and unusual. I'm leaning more and more toward AVM Stanley's Mk.IIC for my Arma build.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[AliGauld]

I'd have had trouble spotting that as well.

As Chris says one side on view at a time.

 

 

Cheers,

Alistair

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Meanwhile, as I consider the fixes I want to make to G-AFKX, I have finished Egypt (Arma Mk IIc).

 

 

As already acknowledged, I might be on shaky ground having done her up in desert camo, but I do really like the REAF insignia against the browns (and again cannot say enough about how great those AZ decals were). I dirtied this one up a little bit more than I have others, especially on the underside, although it does not look particularly badly used in the one photo.

 

 

Here is my attempt at replicating the photo:

 

[2996 Victor]

Very nice work, ME, and a great finish. Have to agree with you that the REAF markings go well with the desert camo.

 

What's up next?

 

Cheers,

Mark

[ModelingEdmontonian]

Well, a family photo is proving challenging (anyone else successfully photographed six Hawker Hurricanes?), but here is phase one, with all six continents now represented:

 

 

From top left, clockwise:

1. Australia (Arma Mk I)
2. South America (Argentina; AZ Mk IV)
3. Africa (Egypt; Arma Mk IIc)
4. North America (USA; Airfix Mk XII)
5. Europe (Poland; Mk I)
6. Asia (Iran; Mk IIc)

So that's phase one of my Hawker Hurricanes around the world project!