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Pe-2 in PLAAF question


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Posted (edited)

I have read from a number of sources that the communist Chinese received at least one squadron of Pe-2 aircraft during the late forties.  A Polish “profile” publication in the seventies featured a profile of one such Pe-2 with red stars and bars markings. One such drawing may even still be on the Wing Palette site. Can anyone direct me to a photo of the real thing or a credible Russian source on the topic?  I have gathered about half dozen books on the topic, all western authors, and the topic is mentioned only in passing. Thank you. 30_1_b1.jpg

Edited by 28ZComeback
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I agree, in the book "Military Aircraft in the Chinese Civil War" (ISBN 957-8628-02-1) they not listed a Pe-2, only Tupolev Tu-2 and Sukhoi UTB-2.

Check out Wing Palette, there are the drawings from the book.

 

modelldoc 

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The official history of the PLAAF Air Force covers maybe 1/100 of the actual “history”. I wouldn’t be surprised if a number of Pe-2’s were in the inventory following the birth of the country and Air Force in 1949.  That being said, it’s easy to mistake the Pe-2 for a Tu-2, so this may very well be a factual error by the researchers. 

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Normally I would be skeptical but the Russians were excellent at identifying aircraft.  They knew the variants of German aircraft and their lives depended upon it. It is not like them to mid-report the type of plane transferred to the Chinese. 

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1 hour ago, JWM said:

In other source you can find that yjeu were Pe 2 of series 359

http://shipbucket.com/vehicles/4958

Here it is repeated

http://www.airvectors.net/avpe2.html

They were delivered in 1950 (from a book on Russian aviation in google book)

The same, one sentence - no picture - true?

 

It comes not true if you write the sentence again and again.

 

Where is a picture?

 

US Forces reported in the first day of the Korean War that NK forces flew P-39 / P-63 - true?

 

modelldoc

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1 hour ago, modelldoc said:

US Forces reported in the first day of the Korean War that NK forces flew P-39 / P-63 - true?

It's possible.

Turns out despite Lend Lease requirements, large numbers of P-39 and P-63s stayed iv VVS service until the early 1950's, as their tricycle undercarriages made them ideal trainers for converting to tricycle undercarriage jets. 

They were in the far east as well, as some P-63 were salvaged from the Kurile Islands.

 

No idea of anything more, but just noting the back story to to the possibility.

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2 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

It's possible.

Turns out despite Lend Lease requirements, large numbers of P-39 and P-63s stayed iv VVS service until the early 1950's, as their tricycle undercarriages made them ideal trainers for converting to tricycle undercarriage jets. 

They were in the far east as well, as some P-63 were salvaged from the Kurile Islands.

 

No idea of anything more, but just noting the back story to to the possibility.

Maybe some mistaken. They should be Yak-9D (or other late versions) used by North Korea. Russian pilots also mistook AD-4 as a P-47!

Tu-2 used for long time in China, but there was truly no Pe-2. Water-cooled engines....too difficult to ground crews by that period....trust me....they learned from Japs..

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36 minutes ago, fernandocouto said:

They should be Yak-9D (or other late versions) used by North Korea.

Yak-9P IIRC, the all metal post war variant.  There are color photos of wrecks taken by the Americans.

 

37 minutes ago, fernandocouto said:

Maybe some mistaken.

I just observed that the P-39 and P-63 were still used by the VVS until the early 50's, and why. 

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Some VVS P-63s and P-39s parked in Vladivostok were strafed by a pair of F-80s during the first days of the war. No other verified encounters between P-63s and UN aircraft. 
 

As to the liquid cooled engine, the North Koreans had Il-10’s and Yak-9P’s both liquid cooled. The Chinese used the same two types. Plus they had experience with the P-51 Mustang. 

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9 hours ago, modelldoc said:

The same, one sentence - no picture - true?

 

It comes not true if you write the sentence again and again.

 

Where is a picture?

Since I know something on communist/Soviet phobia on secrets (especially in army area) I am not surprised that there is no many photos of a old (in 1950 Pe 2 was already old) junks delivered to China. I would be nice to find a photo. However, the lack of P66 photos from time when they were exploited in China does not means that Vanguards were not transferred there. True? :)

J-W

 

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Not adding much to the debate, but here's a photo of a Chinese Tu-2 wot I took at the Military Museum of the Chinese People's Revolution in 2010...

 

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There are also a couple at Xiaotangshan....

 

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There's another one inside the Beijing University of Aeronautics and Astronautics museum... 

 

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.... where they also have a Po-2........

 

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... but no Pe-2.

 

Ken

 

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7 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Some VVS P-63s and P-39s parked in Vladivostok were strafed by a pair of F-80s during the first days of the war. No other verified encounters between P-63s and UN aircraft. 
 

As to the liquid cooled engine, the North Koreans had Il-10’s and Yak-9P’s both liquid cooled. The Chinese used the same two types. Plus they had experience with the P-51 Mustang. 

Yes, PLAAF used P-51 and Il-10, but NOT long as Tu-2 or C-47/Li-2. Some WW2 version with radial engines served until 1982.

 

By the way , Yak-9 equiped by North Korean, not Chinese. I never read this type mentioned , Yak-11 trainers in service instead.

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25 minutes ago, Flankerman said:

 

.... where they also have a Po-2........

... but no Pe-2.

 

Ken

 

Nice photos, Ken. So did you visit hobby shops in Beijing?

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16 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

Some VVS P-63s and P-39s parked in Vladivostok were strafed by a pair of F-80s during the first days of the war

US planes strafed a VVS airbase in Vladivostok? And no one started WWIII?

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23 hours ago, fernandocouto said:

So did you visit hobby shops in Beijing?

Not in Beijing - we didn't have the time on a tight schedule.

 

But in Shanghai I met up with Yufei Mao - who very kindly came to our hotel and took me to a local hobby shop - which, unfortunately, was closed.

 

Ken

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On 5/21/2020 at 11:33 PM, 28ZComeback said:

Normally I would be skeptical but the Russians were excellent at identifying aircraft.  

Not always.

In early period WWII was many pilot report about killed He-113 (nazi propaganda name He-100, which never fly in combat at war) what was in reality Me-109F. In fairness, it should be noted that in the pre-war directories identification book of the Soviet Air Force, He.100 was listed as being in the luftwaffe service. In addition, in a dog landfill, the pilot was often not up to the exact type identification.

As a curiosity of the incorrect identification of the downed enemy, it can be noted that in the flight book of the leading Soviet ace in Korea Evgeny Pepelyaev there are a lot of notes about the downed F-94B .... and it really is confirmed by the US Air Force lost at that time ..... F-  80C! Of course, to determine a loan that you shot down an F-80 or F-94B is practically unrealistic.

 

However, errors in identification are common to almost everyone.

On 5/22/2020 at 11:12 AM, JWM said:

Since I know something on communist/Soviet phobia on secrets (especially in army area)

And judging by the number of published agent reports on the CIA website, it was the right phobia! 

😉😁

On 5/22/2020 at 4:58 AM, 28ZComeback said:

Some VVS P-63s and P-39s parked in Vladivostok were strafed by a pair of F-80s during the first days of the war. No other verified encounters between P-63s and UN aircraft. 

19 hours ago, Richard502 said:

US planes strafed a VVS airbase in Vladivostok? And no one started WWIII?

19 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

These were the days when “things would happen” and they would be shoved under the table. 

 

 

Moreover, they didn’t even start 3WW when USAF shot down Soviet AF IL-12 with pilots over China!

 

About Pe-2 in PLAAF. 

Cold War born many myths and city legend, as examples:

Yak-23 in North Korea (W.Green. World Jet aircraft)

La-15 in PLAAF ( Poland book about Korea War 1950-1953,  but most likely the source from the West ) e.t.c.

I don’t know if Pe-2 in PLAAF is true or not (I am currently reviewing the available Russian literature on Pe-2), but I know, that the Pe-2 at the end of 2WW was already an obsolete aircraft, for the replacement of which the Tu-2 was intended.

Thus, the logical question is, why supply an outdated and more difficult to pilot Pe-2 when there is a more modern and simple Tu-2?

However, this does not exclude the possibility that units of the USSR Air Force participating in the war with Japan could transfer their Pe-2s to China, and China could also receive Pe-2s for training their students future designer at China aviation universities.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

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Posted (edited)

Serge I thought a squadron of La-15’s were evaluated in Manchuria. In fact there is a USAF combat report about an encounter with “high wing Migs” and also “straight wing Migs”. The straight wing Migs were thought to be Chinese Mig-9s encountered in 1954. The “high wing” Migs are thought to be La15s in evaluation. 

Edited by 28ZComeback
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See several above comments (and many more) about the reliability of aircraft identification in a dogfight.  Not to mention the number of "friendly fire" incidents.  The thought of MiG 9s in 1954 is perhaps even less likely than Pe2s being handed over for use as trainers(?) in 1950.  Never say never but when keeping an open mind ensure your brains don't fall out.  Assess the probabilities, with all the massive benefits of hindsight and superior information.

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