Jacarre Posted August 2, 2016 Share Posted August 2, 2016 I love this bit from the blog referenced by Jacarre Finally, we began modifying the nose section of the F-86A ,, so better recreate the shape of this ... again I urge you "Do not try this at home" , this madness is an adventure and a personal apostolate this particular kit . If you are interested in becoming a Sabre of this same model, the easiest way is to modify the tail section of an F-86E Academy or Hobbycraft and make - up of the windshield and voila! Or wait for some inspired manufacturer edit it ... whichever comes first , heh-heh! After doing my mods I'll drink to this! John But my friend Esteban forgot a one little thing... Academy, Hobbycraft and Heller got 6-3 wings, it's necesary the matchbox wings or another set of an Airfix or Hasegawa Sabre Dog... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted August 23, 2016 Author Share Posted August 23, 2016 (edited) What are the protuberances running rearward halfway between the top of the fin and the rudder balance tab. One looks a bit like a light. Neither seem to appear on any of the 1/72 kits. Regarding the curved screen and some other details there are some cracking pictures of the XF-86 in Estaban's blog after the modelling aspects where he has a section on the early jets. Edited May 17, 2017 by John R typo - 'rubber' replaced by 'rudder' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 On 2016-8-23 at 09:50, John R said: What are the protuberances running rearward halfway between the top of the fin and the rubber balance tab. One looks a bit like a light. Neither seem to appear on any of the 1/72 kits. Regarding the curved screen and some other details there are some cracking pictures of the XF-86 in Estaban's blog after the modelling aspects where he has a section on the early jets. Â John, Â Did you finish the XP-86 conversion? Interested to see how it went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 After the discussion on the 1st & 2nd pages of this thread re using wings from other aircraft, I bought the Red Roo early F-86 narrow slatted wing to go with a spare F-86 fuselage I will have left over after using an Academy F-86 to model a CAC avon sabre. I figured that will be a reasonable start to this, Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 2 hours ago, stevehnz said: After the discussion on the 1st & 2nd pages of this thread re using wings from other aircraft, I bought the Red Roo early F-86 narrow slatted wing to go with a spare F-86 fuselage I will have left over after using an Academy F-86 to model a CAC avon sabre. I figured that will be a reasonable start to this, Steve. Steve, Are you going to do a 'A' or an early 'E', or a late 'E'. Â or a Canadair Mk2 or 4 ???? Â there's various changes (winsdscreen, rear fuselage)Â to be made depending on which you do. Â Cheers, Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 An 'A' Tony, I'll be looking for a Pavla or Falcon canopy & making the necessary mods to the rear fuselage for the early set up with separate elevators, doubtless there're other details needed too but I've only got as far as the 'concept' Â so far. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) I thought I should dive in here and maybe resolve some confusion regarding F-86 wings and hopefully provide assistance. Â First thing to point out is that the Sabre wing (that is XP-86, F-86A, F-86D, F-86E, F-86F, F-86J (sic), F-86K, F-86L, Canadair & CAC Sabres) is based on one dimensionally identical wingbox. From that, various appendages were added/modified throughout the life of the programme: attachment of these added/modified parts is via a simple piano-wire type of arrangement, meaning that the wing is in effect modular (the ex-Duxford Sabre for instance has an early F-86A wingbox, with later-standard slatted leading edge (though uniquely on that aircraft the slats are locked in and a fence added, making it the world's only hard-edge, narrow-chord wing). Â As an example, here is a diagram from the Canadair Sabre 5 parts catalogue (wingbox highlighted in blue), showing that the 'hard-edge' 6-3 wing fitted to that type is actually a mix of structure beginning with F-86A items, thru F-86D and then finally including the (introduced on) F-86F leading edge. Assembly numbers shown in the diagram begin with the North American Model Number, with for instance the 177-18001 Flap having an 'NA-177' F-86D-20 prefix. Note that the main wingbox is made up of F-86A and F-86E skins and spars: even then I think the "introduced on" F-86E Assembly Numbers only reflect a material/process change from dimensionally-similar F-86A items. Â Â Now once you know that, it should be easy to modify any wing you have, just by (in the case of the 'F-40' wing) adding a scale foot to the end of the wingbox and matching wingtip and trailing edges to match the taper (in this case it depends also whether you start with a narrow-chord wing or a 6-3; you would also delete the Aileron Tip 165-16218 on an F-40 wing for instance). This is exactly how it was done in the field to modify narrow-chord wings to '6-3' and also to convert aircraft to the F-40 wing (although some of this work was also done as part of associated manufacturer/contractor modification, such as the F-86D-to-F-86L conversion). Â Next I should mention scale drawings. Many of these are incorrect but often used as a way of checking kit parts. The most common error is that drawings take the Sabre's "35-degree wing sweep" at the wing leading edge, whereas it is actually measured at 25% of chord. In fact, even then the correct angle is 35Â degrees 12 minutes, based on the F-86A (narrow-chord) wing: if you add 6 inches to the root and 3 inches to the tip of a wing leading edge (as in the 6-3 wing), then the 25% chord will change, and thus the effective sweep for the 6-3 wing is actually 35 degrees 41 minutes, with a corresponding change at the leading edge; the wing on these later models is in effect more sharply swept. Sorry if that sounds a bit OCD, but these effects are often not captured or recognized on scale drawings. Â So as a starting point, the following is an NAA basic arrangement of the F-86A wing, which gives hopefully enough dimensional data for modellers to generate basic narrow-chord, short-span scale dimensions; and then add scale feet, scale 6-3 etc to get other configurations. I have similar data for tailplanes and fin, if it's of any use. Apologies for the quality of these - they came from an ex-NAA aerodynamicist, who I think had 'unofficially' copied them! Â Final thing to mention: the above dimensions are measured directly from the wing: on an aircraft plan-view, the wing dihedral (3 degrees) will have a slight shortening effect. Edited July 1, 2017 by Sabrejet 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 3 hours ago, stevehnz said: An 'A' Tony, I'll be looking for a Pavla or Falcon canopy & making the necessary mods to the rear fuselage for the early set up with separate elevators, doubtless there're other details needed too but I've only got as far as the 'concept' Â so far. Steve. Â Steve, Â Any idea which F-86A you'll go for? I have a lot of photos and F-86A data (manuals etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Not at this point, it'll likely come down to available decals but I do quite fancy one in similar colours to the one that flew in the UK a few years ago with the chevron type stripes on its back.. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Well I look forward to seeing how it goes. As a starting point, here are a few bits & pieces regarding the v-shaped front screen, which folks have talked a lot about. Â Â Â Â Â Â Also a couple of graphic illustrations to show how the side screens are different to those of later F-86E and F-86F (plus Sabre 4, 5, 6 and CAC Sabre): Â Â Â Finally, a propos of nothing, I noted someone mentioning that pilots were unhappy with the v-screen and this was new to me: I've spoken with many a Sabre pilot (and including Adrian Gjertsen, Mark Hanna and Mark Linney who flew the 'Duxford' F-86A) and none had mentioned it. I doubt it was in fact much of an issue, though the speed benefits are less important than supposedly keeping the screen clean. Anyhow, below is the view forward through an F-86A-1 (curved screen); and then a similar view from an F-86A equipped with the vee screen: as you can see there's not much difference. Â Â Â Edited July 1, 2017 by Sabrejet 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Edmundson Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 another point to mention, is that the 'A' wing had wingtip corner nav lights , versus the later teardrop style nav lights on the 'E'.  Cheers, Tony 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene K Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 10 hours ago, Sabrejet said: I thought I should dive in here and maybe resolve some confusion regarding F-86 wings and hopefully provide assistance. Â Outstanding!! Thanks. Â Gene K Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 To round off the initial post about the F-86A wing, as mentioned by Tony above, the A-model featured flush-fitting wingtip lights:   These lights were also used on Canadair Sabre 1 & 2, F-86E etc.  Final point to note is that all F-86As left the factory without the wingtip-mounted pitot/airspeed probe: it was initially located in the engine intake, and aircraft gradually modified once they had entered service (modification usually at Long Beach). If you're doing a Korean War F-86A, it may be in either 'without wingtip probe' or 'with wingtip probe' configuration. This photo shows the bare wingtip on a late-production F-86A:   I'll cover the tail fin/tailplane dimensions etc next and then do a rundown on the fuselage and other bits. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Forgot a bit: minor geometry differences with extended slats on F-86A wings as follows: Â Â Plus some dimensions: Â Â Â Â 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wez Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Sabrejet  This is great stuff - keep it up!  I did not know about the different wing navigation lights on the earlier versions (I've been looking at Sabre pictures for years)! It prompted me to take a look at some photos of RAF Sabre Mk4's - they all feature the more familiar tear-drop lens covers on the wingtips so I guess that change must have been made during the change to the Mk.4 and is a feature of later E's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 Yes all Sabre 4s had the teardrop type: the flush-fitted lights were seen on some F-86E-10s but not -15 etc.The change was made on Canadair Sabres at/after Sabre 2 19201 (and Sabre 3 19200). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 16, 2017 Share Posted May 16, 2017 (edited) Final bit for tonight: tailplane/fin dimensions as promised. Note mass balances on the elevators: these surfaces act in a different way and have no mass balances on F-86E (all-flying tail) onwards.    Edited July 1, 2017 by Sabrejet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Thats great info there Sabrejet, I guess your user name is a bit of a giveaway. Did all Sabres have the same tail, especially regarding height, I suspect the CA Sabre conversion I have is slightly short shot it being a tad shorter than the Academy kit that is providing the donor wings. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, stevehnz said: Thats great info there Sabrejet, I guess your user name is a bit of a giveaway. Did all Sabres have the same tail, especially regarding height, I suspect the CA Sabre conversion I have is slightly short shot it being a tad shorter than the Academy kit that is providing the donor wings. Steve.  Steve,  The day fighters (that is, everything except F-86D/K/L and F-86H) had basically the same tail (vertical and horizontal). This includes Canadair and CAC Sabres. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehnz Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Right, looks like some building up to do then. Steve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Thanks for all the information you're posting Steve, it's very welcome and will sure be useful to all here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) OK so on to the tail section up to the fuselage break point.  F-86A tail lights are unique, with one above the other (F-86E onwards have them side-by-side). The lights should be red at top and clear below:    Then obviously the F-86A has a conventional horizontal tail, with associated panel differences in the area forward of the horizontal tail. The interior looks like this:   Speed brake dimensions:   Though the speed brake panels themselves are similar to F-86E etc, the brake wells are very much simpler in terms of their contents:    But note that, compared to the preserved example above, in-service the brake wells and speed brake interiors were dark green:   Intakes/vents. In general the F-86A aft fuselage is much simpler in terms of vents and ducts etc compared to F-86E etc. First of all the vent at the forward base of the dorsal fin is very different from the F-86E/F etc:   And finally, on F-86A-1 and early F-86A-5 up to about s/n 48-140 there is a small intake each side of the fuselage as highlighted below. Note also the small oval-shaped vent on the starboard side only, which I have highlighted with a dotted oval: this is on all F-86A but often obscured by the fuselage star-and-bar:   While I'm at it, there is quite a lot of fibreglass on the F-86A as built (some of it changed to metallic later in service, which I will cover in the forward fuselage bit later). But for clarity here, highlighted in red below are the fibreglass items, which were painted pale grey (with the exception of the forward fuselage variations). It's also worth noting that in high-wear areas the grey wore off or was removed and so some bare fibreglass can often be seen on in-service aircraft:     Edited July 2, 2017 by Sabrejet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Posted May 17, 2017 Author Share Posted May 17, 2017 On 15/05/2017 at 8:00 PM, Sabrejet said: Â John, Â Did you finish the XP-86 conversion? Interested to see how it went. Not yet. There were some aspects of the rear end with which I was not happy and it got put aside. Then some problems with my wife's health took priority and I haven't got back to it since. After seeing all your recent input I am feeling glad that I did. Glad to have you on the Forum as you know an awful lot. Where do you get your knowledge? Have you your own F-86 at home? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Brown Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 Sabrejet,  Thank you for posting all of this fantastic information!  Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabrejet Posted May 17, 2017 Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, John R said: Not yet. There were some aspects of the rear end with which I was not happy and it got put aside. Then some problems with my wife's health took priority and I haven't got back to it since. After seeing all your recent input I am feeling glad that I did. Glad to have you on the Forum as you know an awful lot. Where do you get your knowledge? Have you your own F-86 at home? John  John,  Let me know when you are ready to go again and I'll put some XP-86 stuff together. Hope your wife is OK by the way.  I don't have my own Sabre but do have a lot of bits, including  an ejection seat, instrument panel, gun blast panel etc. Plus a lot of photos, manuals, books and personal recollections. Been doing it for 43 years now so was lucky to talk to key people who sadly are no longer with us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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