RLM83 - New Findings

[Michael louey]

I just noticed some interesting findings about the late war Luftwaffe colour RLM83 on the Lufwaffe Experten Message Board.

Michael Ullmann appears to have released some information in some talks to the German modelling community. - Details below.

Michael Ullmann will have some breaking news regarding testing and introduction of RLM81, RLM82 and RLM83. I don't want to take any credits from Michael and it's Michael that should be acknowledged and tell what he has found in the way he wants, but I can't resist mentioned what I heard on Saturday. Michael had a lecture at the "Art in miniature" (IPMS show) in Gothenburg this weekend of his recent archive find's, made in august and he told us we was the first to learn about this NEW info and it was VERY interesting indeed and all previous talk about especially RLM 83 now needs to be rewritten.

What he have found is documents showing the reason to change from RLM70/RLM71 to RLM81/RLM82 and when. The RLM81,RLM82 and (RLM83) colurs had been evaluated, approved and adopted for introduction already in late 43, but that old paint stocks should be used up and therefore was not seen until spring-summer of 44 (on land based fighters as they used up the stocks fastest) and to keep it short that's why some plants didn't make the switch for their production as they had stock lasting until the end of the war.

Now the most interesting thing, Michael has found a document stating RLM83!! he mentioned that he has only seen one document earlier mentioning RLM83 and he then believes it might have been a typing error? This has then been wrongly "adopted" as one of the colours seen on land based aircraft BUT the newly found document states RLM83 was a colour intended for aircraft operating over the Mediterranean (or seas?) together with RLM71? and was stated "DUNKEL BLAU" (Dark blue) and intended for introduction at the same time as RLM81 and RLM82. Question is if this colour was ever implemented for it's intentional use as in late 43-early 44 not much flying operations was conducted over the Mediterranean.

So what we have left is RLM81 and RLM82, RLM82 (Hell Grun) being the lighter version of green and as mentioned here also apparently showed little variation in colour or tone, BUT RLM81 (Olive Grun in document)was all from a dark olive brown to dark green due to no formula specifications was given, all variations seen should now all be traced to RLM81. Old stocks of paints should be used up and therefore different combinations was used up and a lot of repainting was also conducted at unit levels of reasons that's fuel for another topic. I just wanted to share this info given to us attending this lecture and Michael has given his permission to post this.

Michael Ullmann will have some breaking news regarding testing and introduction of RLM81, RLM82 and RLM83. I don't want to take any credits from Michael and it's Michael that should be acknowledged and tell what he has found in the way he wants, but I can't resist mentioned what I heard on Saturday. Michael had a lecture at the "Art in miniature" (IPMS show) in Gothenburg this weekend of his recent archive find's, made in august and he told us we was the first to learn about this NEW info and it was VERY interesting indeed and all previous talk about especially RLM 83 now needs to be rewritten.

What he have found is documents showing the reason to change from RLM70/RLM71 to RLM81/RLM82 and when. The RLM81,RLM82 and (RLM83) colurs had been evaluated, approved and adopted for introduction already in late 43, but that old paint stocks should be used up and therefore was not seen until spring-summer of 44 (on land based fighters as they used up the stocks fastest) and to keep it short that's why some plants didn't make the switch for their production as they had stock lasting until the end of the war.

Now the most interesting thing, Michael has found a document stating RLM83!! he mentioned that he has only seen one document earlier mentioning RLM83 and he then believes it might have been a typing error? This has then been wrongly "adopted" as one of the colours seen on land based aircraft BUT the newly found document states RLM83 was a colour intended for aircraft operating over the Mediterranean (or seas?) together with RLM71? and was stated "DUNKEL BLAU" (Dark blue) and intended for introduction at the same time as RLM81 and RLM82. Question is if this colour was ever implemented for it's intentional use as in late 43-early 44 not much flying operations was conducted over the Mediterranean.

So what we have left is RLM81 and RLM82, RLM82 (Hell Grun) being the lighter version of green and as mentioned here also apparently showed little variation in colour or tone, BUT RLM81 (Olive Grun in document)was all from a dark olive brown to dark green due to no formula specifications was given, all variations seen should now all be traced to RLM81. Old stocks of paints should be used up and therefore different combinations was used up and a lot of repainting was also conducted at unit levels of reasons that's fuel for another topic. I just wanted to share this info given to us attending this lecture and Michael has given his permission to post this.

Summary - The colour we have been describing as 'RLM83' was probably one of the many variations of RLM81 (Brown Violet) and the 'real' RLM83 was meant for a completely different purpose.

Cheers

Michael

[Jennings Heilig]

:banghead:

[Brad]

Ok, what new book is he selling? I have to say I'm rather skeptical about 'NEW' information, as all I really see is alot conjecture and maybes in that piece. Have I mentioned I found new information on a Nakajima built Zero that is longer than a Mitsubishi one?

[occa]

Weren't there reports about dark blue Me 262s?

[Steven Eisenman]

IIRC, and Dave Wadman knows more, a dark blue came into use sometime in 1943 and was used on land based aircraft operating over water. I belive this were predominately the Ju 88.

Given all the ohter documentation, I am skptical of Ullmann's finding, but who knows.

[Stonar]

Given all the ohter documentation, I am skptical of Ullmann's finding, but who knows.

Sceptical of Ullmann's finding or sceptical of the conclusions being drawn? Either he's turned something up or he hasn't which doesn't leave a lot of room for doubt. How that is interpreted is another thing entirely.

Best to wait until he reveals what he thinks he has found.

Steve

[Navy Bird]

Lovely, after I just obtained a few bottles of Gunze Aqueous RLM83...not easy to find in the US! I had to resort to having business associates in Hong Kong, Tokyo, and Frankfurt acquire these for me.

Hopefully, the end result will be that RLM83 is still green, and not blue, so I can use my paint!

Cheers,

Bill

[Steven Eisenman]

Sceptical of Ullmann's finding or sceptical of the conclusions being drawn? Either he's turned something up or he hasn't which doesn't leave a lot of room for doubt. How that is interpreted is another thing entirely.

Best to wait until he reveals what he thinks he has found.

Steve

Ok, let's say I would like to see some evidence or something from Ullmann first. Not so sure why Ullmann allowed a publicity squad before he released it. The poster sounds awfully sure. Based on things I just learned about USN camouflage, nothing would suprise me. But there has been a helluva lot written on the late war colors, by many other researchers.

I think Ullmann need to adress this pre-release of information.

I went and read the discussion. Until there is more forthcoming, it is speculation.

Edited September 21, 2012 by Steven Eisenman

[tango98]

Hmmmm? So the existence of original RLM/Luftwaffe documentation covering 81, 82 & 83 is wrong as are surviving colour cards for these three colours (not to mention of course the discovery a year or so back of cans of these three colours).

How also does he explain that the formulae for these three 80 series of colours also survive to this day?

[hacker]

it is the old " Confuse the issue with fact" syndrome. It is like Spock and Dr Mc Coy arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Who cares if someone found a example one shade darker or lighter? Personally if it calls for RLM 83 then that is what l will paint it besides beyond the academic view point does it really matter? If it looks right then that is what l go with

[stevehnz]

Hmmmm? So the existence of original RLM/Luftwaffe documentation covering 81, 82 & 83 is wrong as are surviving colour cards for these three colours (not to mention of course the discovery a year or so back of cans of these three colours).

How also does he explain that the formulae for these three 80 series of colours also survive to this day?

A good point. I recall a thread on Finescale modeller a year or so ago where the poster had had the opportunity to examine some wartime Blohm & Voss RLM colour chips & match them to the Vallejo Modelcolour range. While one or two may have raised doubts as to the accuracy of the matches, bearing in mind they were matched by eye, the match for RLM 83 sure as hell wasn't blue, not any/either of the versions of it.

Steve.