expositor

Oops; JF! Poor proofreading....

JW, take my opinion with the proverbial salt grain...the Floquil color is very close, but in its absence, PRU Blue is the closest you can get without mixing your own. I wouldn't use Intermediate Blue, but that's me. But hey, what do I know? Good Luck! Jim

JW, that thread was earlier than the one I participated in, but also included the photo I was referring to. My memory is off as the PPI shroud is in front of the gun mount. Thanks for finding and posting it. I blame my Fire tablet for being unable to fine tune a search here as it couldn't be operator error.... Thanks, Jim

Dave, I tried to find an old thread where Tony O and I, among others, discussed the Swordfish PPI, but my search was futile. As I recall, it is in the observer's area for the gunner to look down into it. I remember finding a cockpit photo in a Swordfish paperback; the one with the color photo of a restored plane on the cover, which I don't have to hand right now....As usual, not much help. Maybe the powers that be here can make it easier to find your own posts.... Jim

As a lover of sea birds in land plumage, yours is especially well done! Thanks for sharing.

Dave, not to be contrary, but I believe the flying surfaces were to be semi-gloss, with the leading edge of the wings matte. Jim

Mike, thanks for posting! Great pics. Jim

We had a similar discussion about six years ago on j-aircraft. If I remember correctly, in the absence of clear photos, a consensus of sorts was that as the torpedo shackles were offset to starboard, three cutouts in that side's door were made so the two doors could be closed to avoid the drag Mitsubishi's earlier G4M bomber experienced.

Not that I can add much, but if I remember correctly, the USMC paint standard as per Elliott, was Olive Drab and Light Grey. Which light grey...? USN would probably be the same, or in the colors others have already mentioned. Many USN and MC planes were allocated from Army contracts and so would have been painted their colors. After 1944(?) when the USAAF no longer required camouflage, those a/c probably were painted in USN colors or aluminum...but since I'm a colors pariah....

Assuming I can still post here amid a call to banish me from the kingdom by that polar bear cat who might lose his lunch of fish or seal or whatever his prey.... JW, not much help, but I recall a series on AN a/c in Mushroom magazine some 20+ years ago that despite what BS (you should alter your moniker...some would say that it should be mine!) stated, there often was an absence of anchors on the wing cockades. The one place it had to appear was on the white stripe of the rudder. Now, I can't find those mag's right now, but they might also be referring only to land-based AdA a/c the Navy was using, making this post just a record of thinking out loud.... Cheers! Jim

I forgot to mention, the sea blue color card in Elliot 3 has no green tint; it's just very dark blue. Not to say you'd be wrong about paint from one manufacturer or another, but the standard was a dark blue.... Cheers

You hope it clarifies? Pointless, as you continue to harp about the later colors which have no bearing on anything I asserted. I only referred to the cards in Elliot of the original 1943 blues, which under a perpendicular light source are too close to call them different colors. Lighting at an angle, especially of the matte and semi blue, makes them look dark bluegrey, just like that Helldiver photo. Your quotes of Dana Bell would be germain if we were discussing the weathering of those colors and their need for reformulation, which we all have read and have no cause to dispute. I only mentioned the blues because it was stated that now reflectance doesn't matter; unless or until it helps one argument or detracts from another...much like "science" these days. Cheers

What does this mean? Are you using the later colors to refute my points on the ANA colors? I have only referred to the colors in Elliot vol.2; you're using color cards in vol.3 which are the later FS colors. I don't think such warrants a response. You also added a quote from Dana Bell whose expertise I greatly respect. But I have reservations when even an expert makes unequivocal statements about these or those colors when numerous manufacturers are producing colors to the same "standard." I remember a past contentious interchange between two experts about USN aircraft colors; my own opinion, for what that's worth, is that they were both right; for some planes, not all. As for the color cards in vol.2, the three colors are too close to see a difference. So I advise you to check the relevant volume; you know apples, oranges, blueberries.... What colors are now known? You mean those colors cited in the camouflage scheme drawings? We knew that already. I agree, the museum lighting is insufficient. But as you and I have discussed in another thread already, Grumman had not yet gotten hold of the requested colors and used the markings colors so as not to impede USN production for planes preassigned to USS Ranger, which used tail color Willow Green, a gloss color as seen on the plane in question. Again, if Grumman didn't have the requisite colors, what colors did they have available? You blokes have taken the fun out of this.... Cheers!

You're grasping. The DuPont paint chart colors, posted elsewhere here, are clearly flat/matte, and certainly not gloss. Again, what gloss colors are they if not those I have mentioned? Hey, I could be all wrong; just tell us which colors they were. Now reflectance doesn't matter? Funny how many here over the years, just to cite one example, have insisted that the three USN sea blue colors were all different. Now some color photos seem to show a difference, that one Helldiver photo comes to mind, but one of our premier experts here, if I remember correctly, and one Major Elliott, stated that the standard for all three colors was to be the same, the only difference being reflectance. The fact that different manufacturers had varying mixes resulting in shade differences doesn't alter that standard, at least until the USN is supposed to have changed those standards after the war with the implementation of the FS system. I'll agree to respectfully disagree; despite my lack of credibility. Cheerio, Jim

Hi Maurice, Impressive resume! I only butted in here because all the color suppositions ignored the fact that those colors uncovered in the FAA Museum 'restoration' were gloss. Since they were gloss, that limits the possible colors they could be. We all have reservations about photo interptetations, but sometimes color photos can be revealing. As for Grumman's records, Elliot mentioned gaps, especially regarding EDSG, and I believe Paul Fontenoy as well, if I remember correctly from maybe an IPMS publication many years ago? But again, the fact that those colors are gloss negates almost everything that has been argued in trying to connect them to any British color. Hmm, Fontenoy....Maurice, something about your moniker I couldn't put my finger on until now. Funny, I don't recall you signing off as Maurice until this thread, but now I see it; the great Marechal de Saxe, Moritz von Sachsen, who defeated 'Stinking Billy' Duke of Cumberland at...Fontenoy in 1745!!! Sad that it took this frustrated historian this long to see that.... Forbear, or hero? Anyway, again, a most impressive resume. I hope you'll consider my inferences in the spirit of friendly discussion as I'm hitting way above my knowledgeable 'weight' as they say. Sincerely, Jim