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There is a chap on Facebook (Steven Burvenich - Drab-It-Yourself) who is into historic military paint mixes for resoration and he's posted multiple times pictures of the same paint under various condition (lighting, bacground, etc..) using the same camera. It is amazing to see that the same sample card, object or vehicle looks totally different from one picture to the other. It sort of proves why the OD, SCC2, SCC15, etc debates have been going on for decades and will never get 100% resolved, although a level of comfort may be attained. And even if we get the "scientifically exact" colour, colours are perceived individually and this may be affected by varying degree of colour blindness, tetrachromacy, or genetics/culture (Himba people). So back to SCC4, from my stash, I worked on a Vallejo Model Air mix following guidance from Paul Lucas, Mike Starmer and Jack. I ended up using: 3x71.139 (Field Drab FS30118) + 1x71.244( Sand Beige RAL1039) which matches almost perfectly (to my eye!) a Sico 6195-73 paint sample card (near perfect equivalent to FS33105 according to Encycolorpedia). So that will be that as after weathering, mud and dust, it won't matter anymore!

FYI I took the FS33105 reference and pushed it through Encycolorpedia which gave me Sico paint 6195-73 as the closest (DE 0.447). It turns out that Sico is sold at the hardware store by my place. So I went and picked some samples, and I must say it looks pretty good. Now on to mixing! Eric

Paul, please don't get me wrong, I am simply looking for a certain level of comfort. I should have mentioned that my confusion arose as the other two FS refences were from Mike Starmer, although his second one is closer to yours. So I had two experts who's research I look up to (I now have a whole Malta Spits squadron because of your Colour Conondrums!) with two suggestions that, to me, seemed beyond the normal differences of computer screens. However looking at the RCA's virtual gallery (not the picture), I definitely feel that your suggestion is lining up to what they have (which for some reason I feel it is fairly accurate). Thanks again for your inptut and sharing your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated! Cheers Eric

Thanks Jack, Incidentally the RCA museum just wrote back saying the the FAT was restaured in the 70's and likely painted with military paint at the time. They mention the Ford catalogue only offered parts in single colour (I read on an old thread that all FAT 12 CAB were factory painted in G3) and that disruptive patterns were applied overseas . Now we will probably never know if the person who picked the paint back then was a contemporary eye witness. It could well have been as when I was a kid in the 70s, my neighbour was a truck driver in during the Italian Campaign. He would have known! But like I said, this one has all the ingredients: FAT produced up to 1942 in G3, then shipped to the UK and prepared for Husky in SCC4+SCC14. Unfortunatly Mike's formula uses Humbrol 84 which seems to be discountinued. Any chance someone would know of a Tamiya, Gunze or Vallejo mix? Thanks

Hi jack, In parallel to the main discussion, I have interest in SCC4. Paul Lucas previously mentioned ressemblance to FS33105 but to my eye, that appears greener than other references I have seen: FS33245 and FS30145. My own eyeballing suggests FS30215 but I sort of like your rendition in the above as it appears to come close to that of pictures of the FAT at the RCA museum in Shilo. Although I was not able to confirm that it was in the SCC4+SCC14 scheme, it seems to have all the ingredients: https://en.rcamuseum.com/field-artillery-tractor/ So I was curious if to know if you could provide me a colour reference for your SCC4 version? Many thanks Eric

It almost feels like that after painting the stripes on “K”, they realized Royal Navy and serial were partially covered. Wanting to avoid the “Q” situation, they simply painted over what was left.

I am looking to paint my Swordfish with invasion stripes, possibly another one than the NF243 red S. I stumbled on NF117, black S, of 811 Sqn. Airfix has it in it's 1/72 kit. However I cannot find any picture or reference to the effect that NF117 belonged to 811 let alone partiicpated in D-Day. I also stumbled on red F in scale modelling now but could not find background either. Would anyone know if the red S and F with invasion were for real ? Thanks Eric

So maybe Italeri/Cartograph are right with their black roundel after all. I mean it’s clearly not OD or any shade of it on LZ-V as Curtiss green is pretty dark to start with. Unless they mixed olive drab on site and didn’t have any yellow ochre left! Incidentally there is a picture of three 111 Sqn Kittyhawks taken at Boundary Bay in late 43/ early 44 where each one has a different outer roundel colour that appears to be yellow, OD and black/indigo. Clearly all three colours have been used simultaneously. E

Good point Jack. Keeping the same logic, I guess the next contender would be ANA606, the semi gloss version that would have been around at that time. Thoughts? E

I did a Dupont Sky mix (Vallejo Air Sky Blue 71.306x4 + IDF Green 71.126x1) and it's pretty spot on with FS35622 (the closest reference it seems) and used Mr Hobby H74 for the RAF Sky Type S band. The latter appears lighter against my underside mix. So I am happy there!

Carl has graciously sent me some pictures and I couldn’t help notice as Micheal just mentioned the glossy aspect of the outer roundel. At the same time, some pictures clearly show a lighter dull overpaint. This leads me to think that an initial round of Olive Drab 41 painting took place, then it would have been repainted with ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue which would have been theoretically available in the Aleutians at the time. This would make a lot of sense because it explains : 1. the evident glossiness 2. the darker shade over Curtiss green (DuPont 71-013) 3. the choice of US Navy aircraft paint which should have been available there and then 4. the choice of ANA 623 Sea Blue for its similarity with RAF Dull Blue (roundel blue) As for the gas patch, again the pictures supplied by Carl show LZ-V before and after the pull out manoeuvre and clearly it went from light (dry) to dark(wet) in the process. My feeling is that the patch reacted with the saltwater which points towards a reactive device and further supports that explanation. So thanks Michael and Carl for enlightening me. At this point I will go with the gas detection patch in dirty zinc chromate yellow and outer roundel overpaint in ANA623 Glossy Sea Blue. Cheers Eric

It's all very interesting stuff. I like the gas patch conclusion and will probably go with it. As for the fuselage roundel, would it be possible that different colours were used at differnet time? Interestingly I just stumbled on a site https://www.rcaf111fsquadron.com/life-in-111.html that has many pictures where some P-40 roundels appear to be dark green while other are clearly on the black side. And I suspect black paint would have been readily available over there as well. Again LZ-V pulled out of the water, the roundel sliver on the Manitoba pilot picture and "BITSA" all show roundels way too dark and contrasting to be dark green in my opinion. Moreover there is a picture of LZ-T that clearly shows both black and dark green paint with one of the two appearing to be peeling off... Not sure what to make of it but one could be right in either dark green or black depending on the time the aircraft is depicted. E

With respect to the square patch, there is a picture of what appears to be LZ-D where its patch is clearly of the lighter kind: yellow, sky or light blue. However in the famous picture where LZ-V is pulled out of the water, the patch clearly appears to be a shade much closer to Dark Green (Curtiss 71-013), nothing like LZ-D. I am currently in the painting stage of my P-40 from Hasegawa, which I highly recommend after having a try at the Italeri one. I will use the later's Cartograph decals frr LZ-V though. Can we safely assume that it was repainted? If so, along with the "LZ"? And what kind of dark green would have been available in the Aleutians? ANA613, RAF Dark Green or even RAF Dark Slate Grey? Eric

Incidentally, I stumbled on a picture of TRR Sherman T146616 in Canada's National Archive taken during its waterproofing for Operation Husky in Scotland. It clearly shows that it was repainted a lighter colour than OD (SCC4 according to records) as opposed to being dusty as the serial number appears clean. It does appear to have been repainted with a brush rather than a spray gun though. https://recherche-collection-search.bac-lac.gc.ca/eng/home/record?app=fonandcol&IdNumber=5065189&q=army sicily or search: Army Numerical 18371-22533, page 17 middle strip, top picture. Also on that page, some air recognition roundels and canvas painting. Cheers

Just to add to the confusion. In the TRR book, it is mentioned that in April 43 while in stationed in Sussex, vehicles (Shermans, unknown version) were repainted beige. I have seen Ontarios war diaries stating a repaint in "yellow-brown" which would conform to SCC4. Meanwhile the Calgary Tank Regiment diary mentions black and sand coloured pattern which to me resembles Light Mud+SCC14. However, upon being called into action, the TRR was sent to Scotland where they received new Shermans (M4A4). So chronologically, they couldn't have been the repainted ones of April. So what was the color scheme then? SCC4+SCC14(SCC1A?) to Canadian orders or Light Mud/SCC14 to British ones? We will never know I guess. However, there is a picture in the book with the caption indicating crew posing in front of one of the new Sherman in Scotland. The picture is 3/4 frontal and not very large but one can clearly see two tones, the darker one in the lower part of the hull and the lower turret horizontal strip, although the later is less obvious. Looking at various pictures I am starting to be inclined to think that the TRR (and possibly Ontarios) never received the dark tone treatment but only a patchy SCC4 one with the original tank colour (US OD?) creating the pattern. Cheers