Stirling Cockpit Windows Conundrum!

[MOK61]

Can anyone help me with what on Earth has gone on here?

 

 

Every Stirling build I can think of and every reference image I can find, except this one, has the row of windows below the canopy as rounded rectangles. But these look like  the same shape elliptical windows as the rear fuselage, with pale curtains on the inside and over-sized perspex glazing flush with the skin of the airframe on the outside.

 

I can get my head around aircraft being modified, with windows being plated over in non-standard configurations, at maintenance units or even windows being painted over at squadron level according to a CO'S whim, but this baffles me!

 

I can either ignore it, or just model what I think I can see regardless.

 

But why is it like this????

 

If I'm being particularly dense, please let me down gently!

 

Confused of Cambridgeshire.

 

 

 

[Heather Kay]

I interpret these as black paint frames that have been painted inside the Perspex panels by ground crew. I think it’s a way to create a blackout effect, perhaps reducing the amount of internal lighting that could escape. There’s no obvious pattern to them, and they’re very roughly painted. It’s a feature I noted from many photos in the Wingleader book on the Stirlings MkI and MkIII, but I decided to ignore it in favour of simple blackout curtains inside the fuselage. 

[MOK61]

Now that makes some sense and it sort of fits with my idea of an improvised modification at squadron level.

 

Plus I've got half a chance of replicating that look by thinning the kit transparencies and masking the insides or even painting the internal "frames" free-hand.

 

Perfect.

 

Thanks Heather!

 

Relieved of Cambridgeshire

Edited January 16 by MOK61

[tempestfan]

2 hours ago, MOK61 said:

Now that makes some sense and it sort of fits with my idea of an improvised modification at squadron level.

 

Plus I've got half a chance of replicating that look by thinning the kit transparencies and masking the insides or even painting the internal "frames" free-hand.

 

Your chance to paint freehand and make no apologies for an untidy job 🙂

[MOK61]

12 minutes ago, tempestfan said:

Your chance to paint freehand and make no apologies for an untidy job 🙂

The gift that keeps on giving! 🤣

[JohnT]

Explanation found !!

 

In one of the Wingleader publications they state the black surrounds are painted on not just those windows but at times around the rear cockpit area to reduce light spill from around the edges of the black out curtains.  On sample page 27    https://wingleader.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/StirlingIVandVsamplepages.pdf

 

 

I've got that photo in a book with quite good reproduction.   The photo is not as cropped as the one above and it shows a little more of the fuselage behind the cockpit glazing back past the radio mast and ahead of the cockpit as well.

 

The windows seem over painted certainly but inside or outside and what colour?  The black and white tone of the window paint is rather similar to the camouflage immediately above them but remember the caveat about interpretation of colour from black and white photos.

 

There is a colour photo of Stirling on Key Aero site.  There the same pattern on the windows on the starboard side are painted black in the same pattern.  Caption - Photographed at RAF Waterbeach, Cambs, Stirling Mk.I N3676/S was assigned to 1651 Heavy Conversion Unit. 

 

Secondly a good look under magnification shows curtains behind the windows.  See especially the shading on the window on the right.  Over painting as well sounds like overkill.  

 

Also if you look at the lower edge of the first window on the left the paint seems also to be on the fuselage skin as over painting suggestive of paint on the outside and not inside.

 

 

And just for fun - what purpose does the small circular window right under the windscreen serve?**  Same question for the hole in the skin under the middle window?

 

Lastly if you want a nice weekend away and are a Stirling fan then this might be your ideal mini vacation

 

Douneside House

 

https://www.themacroberttrust.org.uk/about/

 

Lady Rachel Workman MacRobert (1884 – 1954)  Quite some Lady !

 

**  just found a cockpit shot and when on the ground you don't see much ground out the window.  I suspect it was an aid to downward vision when required !

[MOK61]

24 minutes ago, JohnT said:

And just for fun - what purpose does the small circular window right under the windscreen serve?**  Same question for the hole in the skin under the middle window?

 

No idea on the tiny circular window under the screen, unless it was to allow sufficient daylight in behind the IP for maintenance,  as the original specification was for an aircraft capable of operating from unimproved airfields around the Empire with minimal support infrastructure.

 

I had thought the other "hole" was a blemish on the negative...or where the key to wind the spring went! 😁

 

 

Edited January 16 by MOK61

[MOK61]

26 minutes ago, JohnT said:

 

Lady Rachel Workman MacRobert (1884 – 1954)  Quite some Lady !

 

And a geologist too. Wonderful!

[JohnT]

26 minutes ago, MOK61 said:

No idea on the tiny circular window under the screen, unless it was to allow sufficient daylight in behind the IP for maintenance,  as the original specification was for an aircraft capable of operating from unimproved airfields around the Empire with minimal support infrastructure.

 

I had thought the other "hole" was a blemish on the negative...or where the key to wind the spring went! 😁

 

 

 

"I had thought the other "hole" was a blemish on the negative...or where the key to wind the spring went!"           knowing what Arthur Harris thought of the Stirling and Shorts that's not wholly impossible

 

I looked at my Stirling references and when you see the cockpit from the inside the window is down on the left as well as a corresponding one on the right.  I suspect its an aid to looking out and down or perhaps to throw some daylight onto nearby instruments.

 

I'd forgotten that flying the Stirling was a two man job unlike the Lancaster and Halifax where the Flight Engineer got to double up if required.

[MOK61]

3 minutes ago, JohnT said:

I'd forgotten that flying the Stirling was a two man job unlike the Lancaster and Halifax where the Flight Engineer got to double up if required.

Unique for a British heavy of that time and almost certainly down to Shorts' experience with very long range flying boats.

 

All fascinating stuff.

[MOK61]

Going back to the position and purpose of some of those windows in the Stirling's nose, given the angle the airframe sat on the ground, looking forward through the screen, I'd be surprised if either pilot could see anything closer than the next county!

Edited January 16 by MOK61

[JohnT]

One of my books suggests that the experience of the cockpit crew was like driving while seated on the top of a double decker London bus.  Now all in a days work to 747 and Airbus A390 pilots

[RAF4EVER]

25 minutes ago, JohnT said:

One of my books suggests that the experience of the cockpit crew was like driving while seated on the top of a double decker London bus.  Now all in a days work to 747 and Airbus A390 pilots

Think you mean Airbus A380😈👍

Edited January 16 by RAF4EVER
Emoji's added

[Admiral Puff]

I saw a comment somewhere (may have been in an old "Aeroplane") that taxying a Stirling was akin to driving a three-storey house from the toilet in the attic ...

[MOK61]

39 minutes ago, JohnT said:

One of my books suggests that the experience of the cockpit crew was like driving while seated on the top of a double decker London bus.  Now all in a days work to 747 and Airbus A380 pilots

Except they're not having to taxy tail-draggers. 😉

[Phoenix44]

They certainly look over-painted but not in black. They look very similar in tone to the dark green and its difficult to see why they would be a colour other than that? The light top edge of the second one in is a bit of a puzzle, or is that just clear glazing?

[JohnT]

1 hour ago, RAF4EVER said:

Think you mean Airbus A380😈👍

 

Nah I meant 380.  It came out at 390 cos I have a problem with my computer set up.  The interface between the keyboard and the chair often creates incorrect stuph

 

13 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

They certainly look over-painted but not in black. They look very similar in tone to the dark green and its difficult to see why they would be a colour other than that? The light top edge of the second one in is a bit of a puzzle, or is that just clear glazing?

 

I'd agree with that.  Having said that I found photos of other Stirling where they had definitely used black paint.  I suspect they grabbed the nearest tin to hand or followed whatever they were told to use on the squadron.  The white edge bothered me too - sealant put on later after painting on that one window maybe?  Replacement?

[MOK61]

They certainly do look lighter than the black @Phoenix44 but that might be the sky reflecting from the perspex surface. I'm not sure about the lighter strip round the middle window. Maybe some sort of putty seal or draught excluding cord that has either been overpainted or dropped out of the other windows or even a rough cut edge?

 

@JohnT Great minds, and all that, about the seal. We posted simultaneously.

Edited January 16 by MOK61

[RAF4EVER]

1 minute ago, JohnT said:

 

Nah I meant 380.  It came out at 390 cos I have a problem with my computer set up.  The interface between the keyboard and the chair often creates incorrect stuph

 

 

 

When I was in the RAF[many years ago], if we had a problem with the A/C, and we could not reproduce it[especially vibration on Wessex],we would send it up on an airtest, with a different pilot, if he didn't feel the vibration, we would clear the A/C job card with Seat To Stick Interface Unit replaced, [ change of pilot].

[tempestfan]

13 hours ago, MOK61 said:

Unique for a British heavy of that time and almost certainly down to Shorts' experience with very long range flying boats.

 

All fascinating stuff.

That canopy job looks more Titanic to me. Rather heavy duty - perhaps the designer had Kamikaze missions in mind (but keeping the crew unscathed) after expending the bombs? The small oval window on the side below the windscreen also looks to have very limited practical applications.

[MOK61]

1 hour ago, tempestfan said:

That canopy job looks more Titanic to me. Rather heavy duty - perhaps the designer had Kamikaze missions in mind (but keeping the crew unscathed) after expending the bombs? The small oval window on the side below the windscreen also looks to have very limited practical applications.

Masking it was a two hour marathon and it's still not quite right!

 

 

That roughly triangular quarterlight piece should be split in two, so that's something to beware of if you've got the Eduard mask set, and the two round ports in front of the screen are missing. Once I have fixed those there will be 40 masks applied to the one transparency.

Edited January 17 by MOK61

[Ed Russell]

2 hours ago, tempestfan said:

The small oval window on the side below the windscreen

No problem at night but maybe it's to let some daylight on to the instrument panel.

[MOK61]

 You could be right, @Ed Russell. I had thought that tiny port was behind the IP, meaning further forward in the nose, but on very close inspection of that photo I think I can see a section of the starboard canopy frame through it so it must be on the cockpit side. 

 

I had a mad panic for a few moments there thinking I might have glued the cockpit in place too far forward. But all is well. Or as well as the interior of the nose can be without an awful lot of scratch building to correct the Italeri parts.

 

Murray.