Was that a camel? No, an Emil or possibly 2! Finished

[Zephyr91]

Hi, just joining after chatting with @Dansk and @modelling minion.  This build will be a bit familiar in that it is very similar to that done by @stevej60.  But it will use different kits and be a lot slower and less well finished, I suspect.  So…….apart from end-product (hopefully) not actually very similar come to think of it  

 

Apologies for repeating a bit of the chat thread but it describes from where I’m travelling.

 

This is all @stevej60's fault! 😁   I saw his double Bf109 build and thought maybe I could have a go too? 

I only returned to the hobby at the beginning of the year so I'm still "finding my feet" as it were and hence still acquiring skills and knowledge.  But I recently discovered GBs and having hardly even heard about such things before I plunged into the recent Blitz build.  Failed, but thoroughly enjoyed it and wondered if I might do better in a less rushed approach. 

 

My plan is to have a go at these

 

 

The old Airfix one (1986 boxing of 1976 tooling) almost OOB and will be the victim of my first attempt at mottled camo for 40 yrs: and also having never tried that with an airbrush previously it is probable that disaster is already looming. 

 

Whilst I'll try and do it justice I regard it as a potential mule for future experiments    unless it turns out better.

 

Meanwhile the one more likely to succeed is the ICM kit which is a lot newer and better thought of, I think.  The box is an E3 but parts are included on the sprues to do an E7-trop.  It doesn't need much in the way of decals, that I can source from the stash, to render a second JG27 desert subject with simpler un-mottled scheme.

 

I would normally like to spend more time doing research on a particular subject.  However, I was keen to join this GB and get some modelling done.  I have also realised that what I used to “know” about things like WWII Luftwaffe colours is 3 or 4 decades behind the times and I’m rapidly trying to catch up and so take on board a lot of info. 

 

This is where BM is so wonderful and I will probably be asking some naïve questions; but beg forgiveness in advance if things have been discussed before.  I try to work things out first so as to try and save the experten from repeating things, but I’m bound to miss stuff.

 

Anyway, here goes.

 

My “home” research resources are these

 

 

I also have some less type-specific Luftwaffe volumes.  These are supplemented by a selection of articles in a random collection of magazines from the 1970s and 1980s.  And I have learnt some, but by no means comprehensive, on-line searching skills. 

 

Accordingly I have decided to do the Airfix kit in the scheme in the box.  There are a couple of excellent b/w photos of “Black 8”, particularly a very sharp printing in the Shacklady book.   I’ve also found this

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG27-I-MTO/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E7Trop-2.JG27-Black-8-Franz-Elles-Libya-1941-01.html

 

I suspect it has been “colourised” rather than being an original colour photo, but it allows a decent look at some of the physical details and the shape (if not the colour) of the mottling.  Having said that, the colours eventually applied to my model may be very similar .

 

With the ICM kit I’m probably going to do this scheme

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG27-I-MTO/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E7Trop-1.JG27-White-6-El-Gazala-Libya-1941-0A.html

 

There are several photos of “White 6”.  Some have a mottled scheme, but I assume these are later than the plain one (also assuming they are actually the same aircraft).  My preference, in order to keep modelling success more likely, is the plain sand over sky blue.  I like the idea of yellow and a bit of red and white to liven things up.  However, if anyone knows that these are just plain wrong, then please let me know.

 

So I’ve set the stall out as to what I think I’m aiming at and now I need to actually get on and bash something!!   But a bit more waffle first…..sorry.

 

For the ICM kit I don’t propose to do sprue shots as these have been covered elsewhere on BM.  I said previously that although it is an E3 boxing of the kit, the sprues seem to contain bits for the E7/trop as well.  To check I am going to use the correct bits, I managed to download from Scalemates a copy of the ICM E7 instructions.  As I suspected, it is simply to do with the canopy, spinner and air intake tropical filter.   

 

I had read in some builds of this kit that the tailwheel is undersized, and so it would seem when compared to the plans I have.  That’ll irk me if I don’t replace it, and I need some spares ‘cos I have a “thing” about losing tail wheels (as Chris @bigbadbadge keeps reminding me ).  The other thing I noticed is that (having had a problem with them on the more recent Airfix Bf109E in the Blitz build) the guns are very delicate in plastic.  So whilst ordering the tailwheels I might have a look at resin or brass replacement armament. 

 

The rest of the kit looks quite nice with plenty of restrained detail externally and similarly in the cockpit.  Crossing fingers, I think I can cope with that (but modelling is easier without crossed fingers ).

 

Now we come to the older Airfix which I've had stashed away in the loft since I bought it when it came out in this form (Family and work took over so modelling was put on hold).

 

 

I had the pleasure of building the “new” (surprisingly now 10yrs old) version in the Blitz build.  What a lovely kit it was, apart from the tiny tiny pieces that kept breaking or being lost due to their size and my ham-fistedness removing them from the sprues in a bit of a rush. 

 

The older one here is “of it’s age”.  It seems to be pretty good in overall outline as far as I can tell (I’ll check that further as we go along) but there’s not much in the cockpit and nothing in the wheel wells.  The wings come in 4 pieces rather than the more modern(?) 3, so making a symmetrical dihedral more of a challenge. 

 

But the real issue is that it appears to have had a visitation from the Mad Rivetter of Rawtenstall!* 

 

 

The plastic is quite hard and I think I could file my nails on the rivets if I gave it a try.  Why did they do this?  Because they knew they were there and thought they should be included?  This aircraft was flush-rivetted and you just can’t see them in photos from even quite close to.   If one holds the wing pieces at the correct angle to the light one could convince oneself that the protrusions above the wing surface are just a bit less than 0.5mm.  Being generous, let’s call it 0.2mm.  Assuming I’ve done me ‘rithmatic correctly, in full scale terms that’s approx. 14.5 mm or just over half an inch!!!  Talk about a drag queen …….

 

My dilemma is this –

1.       should I just live with these things, slap the model together and get the paint going (afterall the GB theme is desert paint schemes and I also want to have a go at mottling) which deffo consigns this model to a life of muledom, or

2.       do I take more time to address some of these quirks (which could be quite enjoyable) in the hope that a higher standard model will result (but with the risk that it could still end up as a mule)

 

Any thoughts anyone?  [What luxury to have this as a “problem”.] 

 

I think that’s enough rambling for now.  I promise I’ll do something with plastic in the next update.  And it won't be as long on text, unless someone wants a natter ..

 

Thanks for looking.  Keep safe.

 

cheers

 

Rob

 

[*- Purely fictional but I liked the alliteration.  Any similarity to anyone living or dead is entirely accidental.  For those unsure, the place name is pronounced a bit like Rottenstorl although please don’t take that as definitive.]

[stevej60]

A great combination Rob I originally considered both the Airfix and Matchbox kits for this GB but went for the HB option, the G6 had two tailwheels so any issues I think it's in the spares box.

[Zephyr91]

Thanks Steve, much appreciated.  Hopefully not needed as I ordered a pair, but kind offer.

 

I decided to check the general dimansions of the Airfix model to see if it was worth putting effort into.

 

 

Dry fitted the major parts together and it seems my first impression was correct in that the outline shape is pretty good.  Well, it's near enough for me against this particular plan (Grainger 1978).  It even has the aileron trim tabs and in the right place!     I also noted that the wing trailing edges are commendably thin and can be made even more so if I remember to sand the inner surfaces before glueing!

 

Now I was a little surprised about this because the first component I checked against the plan was the canopy.  It appeared a bit under-sized and I feared that major surgery would be required to improve the model.   But then I tried this ....

 

 

Just after the photo was taken it actually fell into the fuselage!!   It's too small all around.  I've no idea why, but not too much of a problem.  I have a spare vac-form canopy in the stash I think.  But the clarity of that (assuming I don't mess it up) means I might have to render the cockpit a bit less spartan in fittings - which I will enjoy.

 

I  have also had a little go at removing some of the rivetting excess.  At least enough to show that it's feasible to get them down to a point where paint might hide them.  Which leads into a possibility that I might have to re-scribe any panel lines that should be visible - and that is more of a challenge.  So this model will have 2 firsts potentially - scribing AND mottling.

 

Any thoughts and comments welcome.

 

cheers

 

Rob

[modelling minion]

Welcome to the GB Rob and with a couple of desert war classics.

The amount of work you want to do to your models is entirely up to you, you are most welcome to build it straight from the box if you want to or fully rescribe and detail if you want.

I like both of your chosen schemes and have done the 79 over 78 one recently and need to add a mottled one as it is such an iconic one.

Whichever way you decide to go I am very interested to see how these turn out.

[FalkeEins]

4 hours ago, Zephyr91 said:

 

I only returned to the hobby at the beginning of the year so I'm still "finding my feet" as it were and hence still acquiring skills and knowledge. 

 

 

 

 wow.. and 500+ posts already. Actually that canopy is probably just the right size to allow you to 'smash-mold' a replacement. Easier than you think with a piece of clear (eg food container) plastic and a candle.  Great post!

[Zephyr91]

Thankyou @FalkeEins but don't be too impressed with the number of posts.  A lot were questions and a subsequent discussions rather than builds!  But I'm keen even if none the wiser on a lot of things; takes a lot of repetition to stick - it's an age thing you know .  In one ear and out the other .....

 

I take your point about the plunge moulding, but as I do have a vac-form canopy spare (found it since I first mentioned it) I will give that a miss this time.

 

I've heard of your blog sites from other BMers and looked at the Luftwaffe one briefly, but not had the pleasure yet of perusing them in more depth.  Give me time ........

 

 

 

Meanwhile, another quick update to show that this isn't just about the Airfix version.  I did a quick dry fit with the ICM version ...

 

 

As you can see, the canopy balanced perfectly happily where it should and didn't fall inside!  The fuselage fit wasn't as good as I'd expected, so will have to watch that.  The pieces being thinner plastic are flimsier than the Airfix one and so are slightly more difficult to handle.   I like the surface detail as it's quite restrained, but is rather vulnerable to my heavy-handed sanding and filing - so again I'll have to watch that too.

 

Thanks for looking

 

Cheers

 

Rob

 

[modelling minion]

That does look like a very nicely moulded kit Rob, it will look great in it's desert colours.

[Zephyr91]

It might just be too fine for its own good the way I do things    , but I'll try and be careful!

 

I will try not to fiddle too much with the internals so I can get to outer paintwork asap.  But there are a couple   of steps to go through yet!

 

cheers

 

Rob

[Zephyr91]

A quick update.  I've been de-rivetting the Airfix version and then teaching myself to re-scribe the panel lines that suffered as a result.  I tried this on a mule a few months back but not very successfully.  However, I applied more patience this time (great stuff this ) as well as having a nice new flexible metal straight edge which will bend around curves a lot more easily.  It's still a bit hit and miss but a lot better than the rivetted look in my biased opinion (the proof will be when I get some paint on! )

 

I also got a bit side-tracked by trying to add some detail to the Airfix cockpit - it being entirely empty apart from a seat and a rudimentary IP.  The result is not accurate like some builds I've seen on BM but looks busier and should be ok under a closed canopy.

 

A bit surprisingly the ICM kit has been fighting me a bit.  It has some cockpit wall detail moulded in so I've not been messing with that, however I've been struggling to make the tub fit inside the confines of the fuselage.  A surprising amount of repeat sanding and dry-fitting was needed until I could pursuade the fuselage to stay together. 

 

 

On both, I've added some seat belts, picked out some detail bits and applied a wash to dirty it all up.  The ICM is joined up.  I was going to do the same with the Airfix but looking at the photo I just can't leave the very thick piece of plastic pretending to be head armour.  It will be one of the more noticeable bits under the glass so needs a more refined solution.  I also need to touch up some of the 02 grey which has suffered a bit under my less than gentle ministrations.

 

The other bit of work in progress is trying to make the Airfix wheel wells look better.  A little more tidying and paint will make them better.

 

I've still to mend and / or open up some of the slots and holes on the fuselage of both kits.

 

Hopefully first outside paint in a couple of days if life doesn't intervene! 

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Rob

[modelling minion]

Off to a great start Rob, the additions to the Airfix cockpit are a big improvement on the kit parts.

[81-er]

That's a great start on both, and I concur with Craig on the Airfix cockpit additions, very nicely done there! I'm glad you're having a crack at taming the rivets and rescribing, sometimes you just have to be brave and go for it to learn new skills. I'm still learning on the rescribing front myself. The end result usually comes out ok, but I typically find there's always a line or 5 that the scriber doesn't quite follow the intended path on, so a round of filling and scribing again happens. So don't lose heart if you have the same issue. Dymo tape is good for non-straight lines, you can mark the profile needed on a bit of masking tape on the model, then stick the tape to the Dymo tape to cut it to the required shape. More masking tape can be used to help stick it down to tighter curves too

 

James

[Zephyr91]

43 minutes ago, 81-er said:

That's a great start on both, and I concur with Craig on the Airfix cockpit additions, very nicely done there! I'm glad you're having a crack at taming the rivets and rescribing, sometimes you just have to be brave and go for it to learn new skills. I'm still learning on the rescribing front myself. The end result usually comes out ok, but I typically find there's always a line or 5 that the scriber doesn't quite follow the intended path on, so a round of filling and scribing again happens. So don't lose heart if you have the same issue. Dymo tape is good for non-straight lines, you can mark the profile needed on a bit of masking tape on the model, then stick the tape to the Dymo tape to cut it to the required shape. More masking tape can be used to help stick it down to tighter curves too

 

James

Thanks for the encouragement and for the tips James.  I've been using masking tape to try and prevent damage when I inevitably slip, but not tried the Dymo tape.  Will nip to the shop when the rain stops.   I keep thinking that I've finished with the scribing then notice an extra panel or access flap/hole.  Then another.  Then ..........    So it's taking a while longer than I anticipated.  But getting there .....

 

Rob

 

Cheers

 

Rob

[81-er]

No problem, Rob, I'm happy to pass on any tips as that's exactly how I learned them

 

James

[Zephyr91]

How time flies.  A bit of life has been intevening, but not too badly.  The thing is, both of these kits have been fighting me a bit so it's taken longer than I expected to get to primer.  This happened today!  Yay! 

 

 

The ICM kit looks far more refined, but it has needed dry fit, sand, dry fit sand etc.. for every stage of assembly.  There's quite a bit of flash that needs removing but one only notices this (it's small in size) when trying to fit parts together.  It's looking quite good but this was a bit of a downer.  Perhaps my expectations were high compared to the old Airfix and was expecting a smoother ride. 

 

For the Airfix one, I've removed most of the rivets and had a go at the re-scribing.  I'm pleasantly surprised how this has turned out but, as mentioned above, I kept discovering more and more panels and access holes that needed re-doing and was beginning to get a bit desparate at one stage.    But it's ok.  The opening up of holes and slots around the nose took some time.  But was needed as it was otherwise a shapeless lump of a cowling.  The vac-form canopy seems to be ok so far.  I've not added the tailplanes thinking it might be easier to do the mottling on the fin and rear fuse (as per Stevej60 with his double build).

 

Both kits gave trouble with dihedral!!  The Airfix one took some time to balance the separate wings - my impromtu jig using wooden forks under the wing tips sneakily moved during the first attempt such that the angle was too big!  Broke the joint and was more successful the second time.   The ICM one was slightly more problematic.  The lower wing piece had too big an angle moulded in!  It was very thin plastic and I feared breaking it after I'd tried flexing it a bit.  In the end I shimmed the upper wing joints with thin card which reduced the dihedral.  But it's still a bit too much, but will have to do.

 

So, we are almost at the point of adding colour!!  Which I think will be fine until the mottling! 😱  Here's an example of my practice sheet ....

 

 

Oh dear.  I roughly sketched to near actual size 3 plan views of the aircraft.  On one of them, taking

 

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Bf-109E/JG27-I-MTO/pages/Messerschmitt-Bf-109E7Trop-2.JG27-Black-8-Franz-Elles-Libya-1941-02.html

 

as the pattern I freehanded the scheme onto one of the plan views.  Naivley thinking I could just fill in the shapes     I produced the above.  I had photocopied several versions of the un-sullied sheet but after 8 tries I have to admit that this approach may be beyond me.

 

  But I have a cunning plan ........

 

Thanks for looking

 

Rob

[modelling minion]

They're both looking great Rob, I can't tell which is which and that is a fine testament to the work you have done to bring the old Airfix kit up to date. You also wouldn't know that you have had issues with the ICM kit.

Mottling can be difficult in any scale and is something I struggle with in 1/48 never mind 1/72, my suggestion would be to mix the paint thin and use a lower pressure than you normally would and practice with it (as you have been) until you are happy with the results. Failing that you could do it in reverse by spraying the green first and putting blobs of blutak where you want the mottles to be and then spraying the sand over the top of it.

[Zephyr91]

Thanks MM, you're very generous with your comments.    I hadn't thought of the blutac idea.  May use that after plan A fails!

 

Just doing the undersides with  RLM 78 -  or at least the 40yr old Humbrol Authentic Colour version of it!     Doesn't look too bad.   Quick photo below, better ones tomorrow;  probably after Sand applied with any luck.

 

 

Lighting not great, but it always amazes me how just slightly different angle towards the light can make it look like these have had different coloured blue applied!  

 

cheers

 

Rob

[modelling minion]

Nice job on the undersides Rob, the paint looks like it went on smoothly.

[81-er]

Nice job on these two so far, as Craig said, your improvements to the Airfix kit are quite remarkable.

 

James

[Zephyr91]

Good day to you.  Hope all is well in whatever neck of the woods you find yourself.

 

A bit more progress with paint.

 

 

 

This is the ICM version.  The old Airfix is still in the paint shop (fancy name for a cold and damp garage!! ) whilst I work up the courage to apply blotching/mottling, but it is in much the same state.

 

The pics above are just after the masking has come off.  On the whole I'm pretty pleased with the paint application with very little leakage and almost zero damage due to removal of masking tape.    So only some small touch ups then I need to do a white band around the rear fuse.   In retrospect it might have been easier to do that first then mask it whilst applying evertthing else.  Next time .....

 

Regarding the actual sand colour, it looks a bit darker than I was expecting.   Could be the age of the paint?  It certainly caused some fun with the airbrush!!      It worked ok for the first aircraft but then gradually clogged up the brush.  I cleaned that up and repeated the exercise with greater proportion of thinner, BUT it clogged up almost immediately again.  Did that another 2 times (slow learner but very persistent ) before I realised that the paint seemed to have a "fibrous" quality that was impervious to thinning and most probably the cause of the clogging.  Must have been just lucky with the first aircraft.   So the wing of the one in the pic above was finished by hairy brush.  I didn't have this trouble with the underside blue, so maybe it's just this tin.   But also may have to beware older/ancient paint.

 

Just to prove to myself that I hadn't messed up the airbrush, I tried the yellow (Colourcoates ACLW21 Gelb RLM04) purchased this year.   Airbrush worked well.   ( again).  

 

So, back to the sand colour, I might just assume it's "factory fresh" before the desert sun got at it and it started to fade.  I might also try a light dusting of light earth on a mule to see how that affects it.  If it works that might be a possibility to mitigate the darker hue.  Of course it's possible that new research since the production of these paints has meant a change in tones, and that it's just wrong!  Anyone have anything on this? 

 

When the white band is done, i'll get this one on its legs and we're heading towards decals/transfers.  [Note to self: don't forget to check whether any home printing is required ....]

 

The other will take a bit longer ......... 😁

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Rob

[Andwil]

As I understand it, when newly applied the “sand” colour RLM79 was a dark tan shade.

 

AW

[Zephyr91]

5 minutes ago, Andwil said:

As I understand it, when newly applied the “sand” colour RLM79 was a dark tan shade.

 

AW

Thanks AW, that will do for me!  

[81-er]

That definitely looks right for RLM 79 to me, though there are two known variants as RLM 79 became darker mid-war. Plus any aircraft that'd been in theatre for any length of time would have had an amount of paint fade, so truly nailing down the "right" colour is next to impossible. So have at it and fade as much (or as little) as you want

 

James

[modelling minion]

I think she looks great Rob, the colour looks good to me.

[Zephyr91]

Quick update.  I've been messing with "blotching".  I decided this was as close as I was likely to get,  and having had a salutory lesson with the practice spaying decided to cut some paper masks  .......

 

 

If you only glance at it quickly, it doesn't look too bad!     The starboard wing came out so badly that I had to start again.  Now waiting for the brushed re-coat of RLM 79 to harden overnight.    The wings were masked and sprayed with 80, but the masking on the stbd wing was not as close to the surface as it should have been and there was significant paint pooling and general messyness .  I'll have another go tomorrow. 

 

Thanks for looking.

 

Rob

[modelling minion]

That looks pretty good to me Rob, its a very tricky thing to do in any scale and I think the masks have worked well.