Fuel additives

[Simon Cornes]

Does anyone know if it is okay to mix Castrol Valvemaster and the Duckhams equivalent? Years ago when these became available to compensate for lack of lead in petrol it was said that if you chose one product you couldn’t put a different one in your tank later!

 

I have been using expensive E5 petrol at Morrisons plus Valvemaster and I have recently been told that you can use these with E10 fuel as well. The ‘Classic’ variety though.

[Julien]

I dont know about the additives but I wont even put E10 in my new car. It runs much better and better MPG on the E5

[Simon Cornes]

Thanks Julien. That’s a very interesting observation so clearly ethanol is not really a proper substitute for petroleum. In my case, the car in question is a 1969 MG and the problem is that ethanol wreaks havoc with any rubber pipes or seals through which it flows. The more ethanol, the worse it gets. A year ago the answer was E5 petrol plus an additive and E5 is not that much more expensive than E10, especially when it’s not being used in your main car so that it lasts longer. Now it seems as though the additives may be adequate to protect if using just E10 but years ago it was said that if you started by using Product A then you couldn’t later switch to Product B and I don’t know if that’s still the case! I’d be interested to know what other operators of classic cars on Britmodeller think about the matter. 

[bentwaters81tfw]

If it's a classic, Shell V Power or BP Ultimate as a starting point. I would never put supermarket fuel in my cars again except in dire emergency. You pay extra for the additives, but they protect your engine and improve mpg.

[Simon Cornes]

Well that’s a fair point of view although others exist!! I’m still interested to know if I can mix Duckhams with Castrol fuel additives? 

[bentwaters81tfw]

2 hours ago, Simon Cornes said:

Well that’s a fair point of view although others exist!! I’m still interested to know if I can mix Duckhams with Castrol fuel additives? 

You could always contact Duckhams and ask them.

https://www.duckhams.com/contact-us/

[Simon Cornes]

That’s a very good idea. Nothing to be lost in asking - thank you!!

[Black Knight]

Also, try asking the Veteran & Vintage Car Club of GB, aka the VVCC GB. and the Vintage Sports Car Club of GB, aka the VSCC

They have technical people who keep up to date on all this and advise us vintage car owners what we can or should use and what not to use

[Simon Cornes]

Thats another good idea. I used to be a member of the MG owners club and there's also the MG Car Club. I have emailed Duckhams so I'll see what they say. Often manufacturers are a bit cagey about saying what will happen if you are using their product after a run with someone else's but in the other hand it is in their interests to make me a satisfied customer so they should tell me - honestly - if its fine or not! We will see!!

[Julien]

On 12/06/2023 at 08:21, Simon Cornes said:

Thanks Julien. That’s a very interesting observation so clearly ethanol is not really a proper substitute for petroleum. In my case, the car in question is a 1969 MG and the problem is that ethanol wreaks havoc with any rubber pipes or seals through which it flows. The more ethanol, the worse it gets. A year ago the answer was E5 petrol plus an additive and E5 is not that much more expensive than E10, especially when it’s not being used in your main car so that it lasts longer. Now it seems as though the additives may be adequate to protect if using just E10 but years ago it was said that if you started by using Product A then you couldn’t later switch to Product B and I don’t know if that’s still the case! I’d be interested to know what other operators of classic cars on Britmodeller think about the matter. 

Ethanol is less energy dense than petrol so its not as good. A friend and fellow club member has his own motorcycle gargae and has many many horror stories about Ethanol in fuel rotting seals, damaging carbs and can you believe causing certain bike brands plastic fuel tanks to swell up.  As @bentwaters81tfw says I wont use Supermarket fuel in my own vehicles. Petrol maybe petrol but the larger companies have their own additives etc. 

[Simon Cornes]

10 hours ago, Julien said:

Ethanol is less energy dense than petrol so its not as good. A friend and fellow club member has his own motorcycle gargae and has many many horror stories about Ethanol in fuel rotting seals, damaging carbs and can you believe causing certain bike brands plastic fuel tanks to swell up.  As @bentwaters81tfw says I wont use Supermarket fuel in my own vehicles. Petrol maybe petrol but the larger companies have their own additives etc. 

This is all very interesting. I tend to always use supermarket fuel - as do the majority I suspect - but in terms of mpg I wonder if the extra cost of BP or Shell or whoever balances with extra range ? And additives, it hadn't occurred to me that the likes of Shell or BP might include something as a lead replacement and something else to counter the effects of ethanol? I don't suppose these manufacturers actually tell you what their fuel includes ? Wonder if there's something like a Which Guide? As for fuel and motorbike tanks, I have a mate who runs several bikes including Triumphs and the surface of the tanks blister - a sort of osmosis effect. I assume they're metal tanks with plastic or some sort of composite outer to give the shape?

[bentwaters81tfw]

About 20 years ago I ran a petrol 2.3 litre Volvo 740.

Tesco petrol (other supermarkets are available) gave me 530 miles on a tankful. Shell gave me 700 miles.

Shell V power fuels contain additives that improve combustion, and therefore economy, have a replacement for lead in petrol, and sulphur in diesel.

I run both petrol and diesel Volvos, and the results speak for themselves. The only downside is some forecourts still charge £1.65 a litre for V power petrol, where my local co-op (using Esso) is £1.34.9 a litre. You can do the maths .

There are similar discrepancies with diesel, but it's down to the forecourt operators to set the price. I vote with my wallet.

 

If you run diesel, you can buy the cheaper stuff, and add 2 stroke mineral oil at 200:1 ratio, and that will serve the same purpose as additives. 

It also reduces wear, gives a cleaner burn and reduces emissions. (Tested and approved by AUDI and Mercedes in harsh climate conditions) It works. reduced my MOT emissions to almost zero.

[Simon Cornes]

30 minutes ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

About 20 years ago I ran a petrol 2.3 litre Volvo 740.

Tesco petrol (other supermarkets are available) gave me 530 miles on a tankful. Shell gave me 700 miles.

Shell V power fuels contain additives that improve combustion, and therefore economy, have a replacement for lead in petrol, and sulphur in diesel.

I run both petrol and diesel Volvos, and the results speak for themselves. The only downside is some forecourts still charge £1.65 a litre for V power petrol, where my local co-op (using Esso) is £1.34.9 a litre. You can do the maths .

There are similar discrepancies with diesel, but it's down to the forecourt operators to set the price. I vote with my wallet.

 

If you run diesel, you can buy the cheaper stuff, and add 2 stroke mineral oil at 200:1 ratio, and that will serve the same purpose as additives. 

It also reduces wear, gives a cleaner burn and reduces emissions. (Tested and approved by AUDI and Mercedes in harsh climate conditions) It works. reduced my MOT emissions to almost zero.

Thats interesting and quite amazing to get the extra range. My cars are all petrol fuelled but I'm not sure who supplies Asda's fuel! I use Morrisons fuel for my MG as they still sell E5 but I don't know who they get it from either! Is that sort of information publicly available ?

[bentwaters81tfw]

You will have to go digging to find that out. I asked my outlet, and they named some company, no doubt the distributor. 

A point often raised is that delivery drivers all claim it's the same stuff as they fuel up at the same outlet for every delivery........but they only load what is in the pipeline. 

We used to have a tank farm on the docks, and the manifolds allowed you to put the contents of any tank into the delivery point. What the drivers don't see is what goes into the blend, only what comes out. My boss, when they made him redundant, used to manage the tank farm, and ended up as a govt. adviser on fuels. He said they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. 

By adding Ethanol (wood alcohol) it allowed HMRC to claim excise duty (based on volume, not cost) on a product that would otherwise be discharged in the watercourse (it's harmless to nature) as a waste/by product. Of course this allows extra tax income, coupled with the fact that E5/E10 fuels give up to 10% less economy, so you buy more, and pay VAT on top.

 

The Govt. wins both ways.  The motorist gets shafted again.

 

[Simon Cornes]

1 hour ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

You will have to go digging to find that out. I asked my outlet, and they named some company, no doubt the distributor. 

A point often raised is that delivery drivers all claim it's the same stuff as they fuel up at the same outlet for every delivery........but they only load what is in the pipeline. 

We used to have a tank farm on the docks, and the manifolds allowed you to put the contents of any tank into the delivery point. What the drivers don't see is what goes into the blend, only what comes out. My boss, when they made him redundant, used to manage the tank farm, and ended up as a govt. adviser on fuels. He said they didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. 

By adding Ethanol (wood alcohol) it allowed HMRC to claim excise duty (based on volume, not cost) on a product that would otherwise be discharged in the watercourse (it's harmless to nature) as a waste/by product. Of course this allows extra tax income, coupled with the fact that E5/E10 fuels give up to 10% less economy, so you buy more, and pay VAT on top.

 

The Govt. wins both ways.  The motorist gets shafted again.

 

I just had a little Google which confirms everything that you say and that the likes of BP and Esso add 'Additives' but don't claim any benefits from these additives because then they would have to prove it - but obviously your experience suggests that there is something added to the brew that gives you more power per cc of petrol !

[Circloy]

7 hours ago, Simon Cornes said:

Tesco petrol (other supermarkets are available) gave me 530 miles on a tankful. Shell gave me 700 miles.

I've seen similar results with diesel. Before the massive price hikes on my daily home run I regularly achieved mid to high 50's mpg (62 best), with the high prices elected to use suprmarket fuel, consumption dropped to low/mid 50's some days as low as 48. As prices dropped I've switched back to branded fuel, mainly BP, within 2 tank fulls consumption was back to normal & running smoother (achieved 63 on one occasion).

 

Have not yet got back on ESSO which I've always thought was better.

 

7 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

A point often raised is that delivery drivers all claim it's the same stuff as they fuel up at the same outlet for every delivery........but they only load what is in the pipeline

Same refinery but different cuts from the distilation process. From a relative that worked from Immingham I understand the pre-mixed additives are put into the delivery tanker.

 

Regarding Supermarket diesel I've seen in print (CSMA motoring mag.) that there is one supermarket (not named) that banned its own delivery drivers, including fuel deliverys, from using its own diesel because of its potential to cause engine damage.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

If you run diesel, you can buy the cheaper stuff, and add 2 stroke mineral oil at 200:1 ratio, and that will serve the same purpose as additives. 

It also reduces wear, gives a cleaner burn and reduces emissions. (Tested and approved by AUDI and Mercedes in harsh climate conditions) It works. reduced my MOT emissions to almost zero

Any links?

[bentwaters81tfw]

3 hours ago, Circloy said:

 

 

 

 

Any links?

It was a few years back (CBA TBH), but essentially, Mercedes invited some of their best customers to go on a jolly. Taking new Mercs overland to China all expenses paid. They fuelled up where they could, probably off the back of a camel somewhere. On arrival in China, Merc stripped the vehicles down to see how they fared. Half of the drivers were given 2 stroke to add, and half without. The results were surprising. VAG did something similar. I you look back on the AUDI owners forum, you will find something about it, that's where I read it.

I used to have an S 80 with the VAG diesel lump using a rotary pump. Ran it on 80% sunflower oil, with the odd shot of 2 stroke. My mechanic runs a Transporter 4 on straight cooking oil. Don't put it in an HDI engine, the seals don't like cooking oil. 

Rudolph Diesel designed his engines from the outset to run on hemp oil.

[Troy Smith]

9 hours ago, bentwaters81tfw said:

Ethanol (wood alcohol)

Not the same

Ethanol = C₂H₅OH

Wood alcohol is Methanol = CH₃OH

Ethanol is drinking alcohol, Methanol is toxic. (more precisely the metabolic products are toxic, Methanol is metabolised into formaldehyde)

 

Ethanol is made into methylated spirits by addition of 5 or 10% Methanol, as the powers that be like alcohol duty...

 

these alcohols are soluable in both water and hydrocarbons,   but can see why they can affect seals, as both will contain water unless chemically dried,  and would also add bulk to fuels.

 

even Pertrol is complex stuff,  it's  balance between refining and end product,  ideally you want branched chains for ease of combustion, eg on the octane scale,  octane, a straight 8 molecule chain  scores minus 20, as when it combust is does in sequence, causing knocking,  meanwhile 2,2,4 Tri methypentane, (which is an isomer of octane) has branched methyl groups,  which combust evenly, and is 100 on the octane scale.

Lead was added not for the lead, but as a easy way to skip refining stages, as tetra methyl lead,  which helped stop knocking.

Lead did act as lubricant as well, but the main use was as an anti knock agent and an easy way to raise octane rating....

 

IIRC they were using beneze/cyclohexane  to up the octane and there were health concerns on that...   

[Simon Cornes]

That’s quite a chemistry lesson Troy! I haven’t thought about organic chemistry for over 40 years so it was very interesting to read. Given that the ethanol content of modern fuel has a negative effect on rubbers and plastics then you would think that the automotive industry would be demanding unceasingly resistant seals designed to cope. On a more cynical angle they might ask why bother if we’re all going to be driving around in electric cars in the not to distant future. Well, those who can afford or who have a company car will anyway. I’m thinking one of these new electric bikes/scooters, possibly with stabilisers for later years or maybe a side car (read perch) might be my future , at least for short range stuff but of course you’d need all over body protection (if you recall the Goodies episode?) or helmet, elbow and knee pads!!