Liberator B-24H 41-29433

[The west wing]

Hi,

 

I'm gathering information on this aircraft as it belly landed in a field near my house (crew all ok). Something I have noticed is what appears to be an extension of the black anti glare panel back over the top of the cockpit around the turret and over part of the wings.

 

Is this normal, or am I missing something?

 

[Col Walter E Kurtz]

I don't think I've seen this type of painting on any other liberators in WW2 pics before.Id hazard that it's not normal..

its always hard to make sense of the true picture. It's possible it could even be a shadow cast by the tail of an aircraft above ?  Have you checked any sister aircraft pics from same BG or Squadron? To see if any others hav this modification? Try searching on he AmericanAir Museum website.. it has many images .. you might luck out and find some new leads there? 

Andy 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Col Walter E Kurtz

[Michael51]

There may be other interpretations of that apparent colour variation.

 

The aircraft appears to be OD, so it is most unlikely to have anti-glare paint on it.

 

More likely, it is a photographic anomaly,  new paint work, shadow from a port wing of an aircraft above or a permutation of these.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Michael51
Alzheimer remembers

[Col Walter E Kurtz]

I have a link with the same aircrafts squadron.. The Ellis crew died not half a mile from where I'm sitting at this moment!  They were same BG and same Squadron as the one that belly landed near your house!

 

42-95023

2nd Lt John D Ellis pilot and commander

 

Killed in Action (KIA) or KIS 12 August 1944. Aircraft aborted raid to Juvicour Airfield due to weather and crashed with full bomb load near Cheshunt. Possibly collided with 398th BG B-17. Pilot Ellis credited by locals with keeping his plane in the air long enough to prevent crash into the town. Road in Cheshunt named 'Lieutenant Ellis Way' in his honor

[The west wing]

2 minutes ago, Col Walter E Kurtz said:

I have a link with the same aircrafts squadron.. The Ellis crew died not half a mile from where I'm sitting at this moment!  They were same BG and same Squadron as the one that belly landed near your house!

 

42-95023

2nd Lt John D Ellis pilot and commander

 

Killed in Action (KIA) or KIS 12 August 1944. Aircraft aborted raid to Juvicour Airfield due to weather and crashed with full bomb load near Cheshunt. Possibly collided with 398th BG B-17. Pilot Ellis credited by locals with keeping his plane in the air long enough to prevent crash into the town. Road in Cheshunt named 'Lieutenant Ellis Way' in his honor

The crash here was May 29th 1944, so he died only a few months later. There is some photographs of the belly landing in the collection of the Norwich American Library these also show the strange paint patern. If you google 'Liberator Sporle may 29th' the aircraft is in the field with one starboard engine missing.

 

It's hard to imagine what the crews of these aircraft went through to be shot at, crashed and then returnd to action again.

[Col Walter E Kurtz]

16 minutes ago, The west wing said:

The crash here was May 29th 1944, so he died only a few months later. There is some photographs of the belly landing in the collection of the Norwich American Library these also show the strange paint patern. If you google 'Liberator Sporle may 29th' the aircraft is in the field with one starboard engine missing.

 

It's hard to imagine what the crews of these aircraft went through to be shot at, crashed and then returnd to action again.

Yes. I found the pic. I have to agree with you there does seem to be a different painted area. It's just about visible in the belly landing pic and I think you are right to add this as a detail to your ship ! Good detective work! 👍👍. 

Ill look forward to your build for sure. Quite a coincidence we both live very close to crash locations of aircraft from the same Squadron! 

 

These crews, indeed. I could not imagine what they went through. I hope that by making my models it keeps their sacrifices alive as part of telling their stories..

Regards

Andy 

[Phoenix44]

Always tricky to tell but I don't think that's black. There's a fair bit of much darker grey such as the edge of the fins, the lettering in the white circles and the exhaust stainsbthat is probably black. I also doubt if it's a shadow as there appears to a break in it on the starboard wing and it seems to be both too even and too light. The shadow under the wing is extremely dark. Its not an obvious shape either. It's interesting that the other aircraft is much darker. I'd like to say new paint but it seems to be quite weathered and heavily stained by the exhausts. So I think its paint, but not black. 

[G.R.Morrison]

1 hour ago, Col Walter E Kurtz said:

by making my models it keeps their sacrifices alive

As Frank Olynyk mused, "If you don't remember your heroes, who will?"

 

My late best friend was a rear turret gunner in the 466th.  A big man, he tried the ball turret ONCE.  He had the rear of his turret cut away, so in case the bail-out bell sounded, he could turn it 90° and be out.  He was a modeler before, during and after the war, and I still have several of the carved wooden B-24s he made and painted at the time, and colored-pencil drawings of the nose art.

 

GRM

[The west wing]

10 minutes ago, Phoenix44 said:

Always tricky to tell but I don't think that's black. There's a fair bit of much darker grey such as the edge of the fins, the lettering in the white circles and the exhaust stainsbthat is probably black. I also doubt if it's a shadow as there appears to a break in it on the starboard wing and it seems to be both too even and too light. The shadow under the wing is extremely dark. Its not an obvious shape either. It's interesting that the other aircraft is much darker. I'd like to say new paint but it seems to be quite weathered and heavily stained by the exhausts. So I think its paint, but not black. 

I think the gap in the starboard wing might be a lighter stain as the cowling behind the engine looks to be very light (Lean engine exhaust/heat?)

 

Good point about the black markings as the area in question does look lighter. If you look at the photo of the crashed aircraft the markings on the tail have chamged to black with a white bar. I think it was repainted just a few weeks before the crash.

 

Something I did find was the crash photo was taken by the 3rd S.A.D at Watton, there is a very interesting history on the RAF watton website. One of the things mentioned was the development of rocket assisted takeoff of a Liberator!

[Col Walter E Kurtz]

11 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

As Frank Olynyk mused, "If you don't remember your heroes, who will?"

 

My late best friend was a rear turret gunner in the 466th.  A big man, he tried the ball turret ONCE.  He had the rear of his turret cut away, so in case the bail-out bell sounded, he could turn it 90° and be out.  He was a modeler before, during and after the war, and I still have several of the carved wooden B-24s he made and painted at the time, and colored-pencil drawings of the nose art.

 

GRM

That's a nice story G, sounds like a privilege to have known your friend indeed. so few of them are still with us now. Any WW2 veterans alive will be in their 96th year at least. I always , when I visit a WW2 airfield memorial in England, pick up litter and do any weeding and spend a few moments in quiet reflection. It's the least I can do to acknowledge these young guys.

Andy

[The west wing]

10 minutes ago, G.R.Morrison said:

As Frank Olynyk mused, "If you don't remember your heroes, who will?"

 

My late best friend was a rear turret gunner in the 466th.

GRM

The tail gunner on the Liberator was gunner Sgt William L. Altschaft, he was credited with destroying an FW-190 on the mission it crashed.

[The west wing]

8 minutes ago, Col Walter E Kurtz said:

That's a nice story G, sounds like a privilege to have known your friend indeed. so few of them are still with us now. Any WW2 veterans alive will be in their 96th year at least. I always , when I visit a WW2 airfield memorial in England, pick up litter and do any weeding and spend a few moments in quiet reflection. It's the least I can do to acknowledge these young guys.

Andy

My father served as a civilian engine fitter for the Fleet Air Arm in WW2 is in just a few weeks it's his 100th birthday, he is quite a character!

 

Ian

[e8n2]

10 hours ago, The west wing said:

Hi,

 

I'm gathering information on this aircraft as it belly landed in a field near my house (crew all ok). Something I have noticed is what appears to be an extension of the black anti glare panel back over the top of the cockpit around the turret and over part of the wings.

 

Is this normal, or am I missing something?

 

I would say that it had some damage that required some sheet metal work to be done and that what you are seeing is some freshly painted areas.

Later,

Dave

[72modeler]

16 hours ago, e8n2 said:

I would say that it had some damage that required some sheet metal work to be done and that what you are seeing is some freshly painted areas.

Later,

Dave

I think so, too Dave- for what it's worth. All of the fuel transfer lines on the B-24 ran through the upper fuselage from wing to wing, and it certainly looks like some sort of damage or maintenance with the wing tanks or fuel lines/valves that required repair/overhaul took place that required those areas being repainted.

Mike

[Hornchurch]

On 26/01/2022 at 19:38, The west wing said:

Hi,

 

I'm gathering information on this aircraft as it belly landed in a field near my house.

Something I have noticed is what appears to be an extension of the black anti glare panel back over the top of the cockpit around the turret and over part of the wings.

Is this normal, or am I missing something?

 

 

On 26/01/2022 at 19:47, Col Walter E Kurtz said:

I don't think I've seen this type of painting on any other liberators in WW2 pics before.Id hazard that it's not normal..

 

On 26/01/2022 at 20:06, Col Walter E Kurtz said:

The Ellis crew died not half a mile from where I'm sitting at this moment!

 They were same BG and same Squadron as the one that belly landed near your house!

 

 

 

A mild co-incidence for me, as only last-night we drove past the 392nd's "main runway" - (on the way back from the Pub 😋

In fact, we drove past it TWICE  -  once outbound  &  seven hours later, homeward-bound, in the pitch dark (Wendling)

(I even stopped for a 'Lag' outside Honeypot-Wood, the 392nd's "bomb dump" area - No, I wasn't driving, just emptying out about six-pints !)

On the Western side, it led (leads) out to the A.47

But when I'm driving, I like to use the 'Honeypot-Wood' side, as the bridge AVOIDS the dreaded A.47 - (To go Scarning, thence Dereham)

 

Have always taken an interest in the 392nd's B.24s - (see below)

 

Major reason is  =  Same unit as THE original "Roy Cross" box-art from the 1965-1972 vintage AIRFIX Liberator  -  (that I built several of circa 1971)

 

 Classic box-art (if ever) -  I even bought one of these (circa 1998, "mint"), purely for nostalgia reasons, as a keepsake,

 

 

 

 

 

BTW ; Back in 1971, the I.W.M (at Lambeth), had a display-case which actually replicated this exact same AIRFIX B.24 Liberator "box-art"

 

The guy who did it, used at least FIVE of the old AIRFIX kit(s) seen above, plus a 'climbing 109' - (Prob' the old "Bag & Staples" Airfix 109-G6)

 

The B.24 display-case was there in 1971-1975 (near the He.162 & Swordfish), but sadly wasn't there on my March 1981 visit.

 

Back to the paint - I see it as nothing more 'sinister' than a (much) later "re-application" of "Olive Drab" of a (completely) different batch !!!!!

 

It's B&W photography folks....

& despite the sharp 77 y/o photo', you'd expect different applications to render (sometimes) vastly different 'outlook' on a B/W image

 

I'd (honestly) say "nothing to get excited about" & "as you were" with regard to it NOT being 'Black paint', as it might otherwise appear.

[The west wing]

Thanks for all the feed back, I think the new olive drab over the faded paint makes sense.

 

When I build the model  (crashed in the field) I think it will be the most weathered, stained and battered model i've ever built!

 

Ian

[Jackson Duvalier]

2 hours ago, The west wing said:

When I build the model 

 

So you are planning to model this one!  I wasn't sure from the OP whether this was pre-build research or simple curiosity.  😊

 

AFAIK, every B-24 kit that's ever been on the market is compromised in terms of detail and outfit.  I can't imagine one could reasonably expect otherwise from a kit of an aircraft with so many different marks and production variations.  The Haitch model B-24 is particularly underserved.  This affords you the opportunity to do lots more research about 41-29433's production block and any Mod Center or field modifications and then perform necessary corrections to your chosen kit!  What more could the Very Serious Modeller ask for?   😎

 

[Col Walter E Kurtz]

This build sounds like it's got some unusual details and back story to it... all the ingredients for an interesting stonker that stimulates the mind as well as delights the eyes!

i say DO IT, lol

 

Regards, Andy

[Phoenix44]

I wonder if it demarcated the area you can walk on rather than damage? It would be pretty serious if that area on both wings and the fuselage was damaged. B-24s had relatively narrow wings so perhaps it was a help to have it painted darker?

[e8n2]

16 hours ago, Phoenix44 said:

I wonder if it demarcated the area you can walk on rather than damage? It would be pretty serious if that area on both wings and the fuselage was damaged. B-24s had relatively narrow wings so perhaps it was a help to have it painted darker?

Doubtful.  If that was the case you would expect to see it on nearly every B-24 there is.  This is the only one I have seen it on and if I was a Brit I would probably be an OAP by now.

Later,

Dave

[Ed Russell]

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