Marseille Bf109-F4 Colours

[fishplanebeer]

My next project will be the AZ example of the Bf109F-4 in the colours of Joachim Marseille but I have a small question which hopefully someone can help with.

 

The box art shows his machine in June 1942, Werk Number 8693, having a red rudder with the under nose cowling painted yellow. However my other source for this machine, from the Osprey Aviation series 'Bf109 Aces of North Africa', shows the same machine but without the yellow lower nose cowling, so which one is correct please?

 

Regards

Colin.

[Toryu]

A German publication from 1978 (Modell-Fan 3/78) shows a colour profile of 8693 with yellow under the nose up to the exhaust line and with a blue rectancle behind the stencil on the port side under exhaust (as masked before applying yellow).

[72modeler]

There was an IPMS USA Quarterly article many years ago by John Beaman that had drawings and text that covered all of Marseille's Bf-109F's; I think I have that issue, and if you like, I could look for it and see what John said about Werk Nummer 8693. I also vaguely recall we had a discussion about the external  detail differences between the F-2 and F-4, and you could do a search for it. Maybe fellow Texan @Space Rangercould be of assistance....got anything for him, Mike?

Mike

 

[Toryu]

23 minutes ago, 72modeler said:

we had a discussion about the external  detail differences between the F-2 and F-4

 

Here -

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

6 hours ago, fishplanebeer said:

My next project will be the AZ example of the Bf109F-4 in the colours of Joachim Marseille but I have a small question which hopefully someone can help with.

 

The box art shows his machine in June 1942, Werk Number 8693, having a red rudder with the under nose cowling painted yellow. However my other source for this machine, from the Osprey Aviation series 'Bf109 Aces of North Africa', shows the same machine but without the yellow lower nose cowling, so which one is correct please?

 

Regards

Colin.

In the days of the Frog and Jo-Han 1/72 kits the yellow cowling was unknown. Later on things got complicated (and it seems nowadays the yellow is accepted).

 

Look at these two (and google for more) and judge for yourself

 

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW15/Me109-F4ZTrop-I.3.JG27-Yellow14-(SL+KU)-WrkN8693-Flown-By-Leutnant-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-At-Martuba-Libya-February-1942-22f-s.jpg

 

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Me109F4ZTrop-I.3.JG27-Yellow14-(SL+KU)-WrkN8693-Flown-By-Oberleutnant-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-Libya-North-Africa-1942-9.jpg

 

Once this is clarified, we shall talk about the color of the inside of the landing gear covers (02 or 78 or maybe even 65?) landing gear struts, the cockpit (is there any 02 or 66 only?) and wether the wingtips have to be white (or not or on the undersides only) and does the tail wheel have a white wall tire?

[72modeler]

Here's a link to probably the best written reference on Marseille's Bf-109F's as well as detail differences between the F-2 trop, F-4 trop, and F2/4z trops. Good luck finding a copy for less than the National Debt, though! ( I sorely regret not buying it when it was available, but at that time I couldn't see spending the money for a reference on one pilot's aircraft....there's  a lesson learned the hard way!)

Mike

 

http://www.internetmodeler.com/2008/april/new-releases/book_marseille.php

Edited November 25, 2020 by 72modeler
added text

[JackG]

This photo indicates at least one of Marseille's aircraft had white on the top of wingtips:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Space Ranger]

6 hours ago, 72modeler said:

There was an IPMS USA Quarterly article many years ago by John Beaman that had drawings and text that covered all of Marseille's Bf-109F's; I think I have that issue, and if you like, I could look for it and see what John said about Werk Nummer 8693. I also vaguely recall we had a discussion about the external  detail differences between the F-2 and F-4, and you could do a search for it. Maybe fellow Texan @Space Rangercould be of assistance....got anything for him, Mike?

Mike

 

Unfortunately, I do not.

[Jochen Barett]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

This photo indicates at least one of Marseille's aircraft had white on the top of wingtips:

 

regards,

Jack

Yes it does and that picture even looks like the white paint goes all the way around the edge towards the lower side (and some people on the internet claim it shows WerkNr 10137), but this one ...

https://ww2db.com/image.php?image_id=10462

gives the impression of no white lower wing tips.

 

The gentleman running our local hobby store used to have a nice showcase with built models (naturally) including a yellow 14 and every once in a while new evidence surfaced for some detail. One day he gave up, erased most of the bars on the rudder and painted the 14 red, "Show me your evidence that there was no red 14 flying in Africa!"

[Graham Boak]

I can see why no upper white wingtips but no lower white?  Most odd to me.   It appears that I'm also about to finish this machine, from a slightly reworked Italeri kit using transfers from an unknown source - I did have Max Abt's JG27 set but that's apparently long gone.  It doesn't have the yellow underneath the cowling, and as a Russian Front marking I'm slightly perplexed that it should.  Anyone who feels strongly about it has about two days to convince me otherwise.  (Of course, it might not be the same aircraft... but isn't that red rudder distinctive?)

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

---  Anyone who feels strongly about it has about two days to convince me otherwise.  (Of course, it might not be the same aircraft... but isn't that red rudder distinctive?)

I have the strong feeling you should build your 109 (or any other kit) in a way that appeals to you.

 

When it comes to Marseille 109 paint schemes, I think the guide for the lifeline decals https://www.scalemates.com/kits/lifelike-decals-48-035j-messerschmitt-me-109-part-7-marseille-special-with-kubelwagen-mark-japan--1094836 got it fairly right, "yes, the lower cowling is yellow" (and the captions for the two pics I gave somewhere above are wrong in one case, the pictures show two different planes).

 

My conclusion is to take any caption and any color interpretation and any guy telling things on the internet with several grains of salt.

 

But all in all this is not about evidence in a court trial, it is about a good looking (and hopefully halfways acurate) and convincing plastic model. One might even put the JG27 Geschwaderwappen onto the upper cowl - but I'd go with those ideas presented for the lifelike decals, they look pretty convincing and if I need a 109 with JG27 badge I could still build Pöttgens 109.

[Graham Boak]

The way that appeals to me is the one with convincing evidence.  The message I get from the above thread is "older sources no yellow, modern sources yellow".  But is this because there is now convincing evidence that was previously unavailable or is it just a fashion driven from one possibly mistaken writer/artist and since copied?  The wider question is why should any aircraft in North Africa have yellow cowlings when the theatre markings were white?  I discount the known example(s) where markings left-over from the Balkans campaign were carried. Is it widely seen on other JG 27 examples?

[HOUSTON]

found this. 

 

https://pin.it/1cyT5jA

[HOUSTON]

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/hans-joachim-marseille-bf-109f-4-trop-markings-and-paint.36637/

 

 

[HOUSTON]

https://pin.it/16PkC1E

 

https://pin.it/2I5wR0E

 

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by HOUSTON

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

The way that appeals to me is the one with convincing evidence.  The message I get from the above thread is "older sources no yellow, modern sources yellow".  But is this because there is now convincing evidence that was previously unavailable or is it just a fashion driven from one possibly mistaken writer/artist and since copied?  The wider question is why should any aircraft in North Africa have yellow cowlings when the theatre markings were white?  I discount the known example(s) where markings left-over from the Balkans campaign were carried. Is it widely seen on other JG 27 examples?

 

"Well yes", it seems in the olden days people (and box art artists from Frog and Jo-Han and Osprey books etc.) did not "know" about the yellow.

 

In some sources (and I have to admit I'm unable to relocate and quote them) I read about yellow being the "early German air superiority color in WW II". So even with white as a theater marking it could make sense.

 

I think this one

http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Me109F4ZTrop-I.3.JG27-Yellow14-(SL+KU)-WrkN8693-Flown-By-Oberleutnant-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-Libya-North-Africa-1942-9.jpg

has a wrong serial number in the descriptive file name, but it is the base for the two folowing colorization attempts,

a)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fb/c3/69/fbc36929470d5bd53d53c394065e7610.jpg

and b)

https://scontent-ham3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/26171607_422505661515652_4410165023990805418_o.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=2&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=kz0oJhsHi38AX_c4Nvu&_nc_ht=scontent-ham3-1.xx&oh=c3fa007d27eecf6fec7dc8e8fd70beef&oe=5FE6E095

 

And to me b) looks more convincing than a) when it comes to the demarcation line between yellow and RLM 78 on that plane, but I do not have any evidence.

 

Here http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW15/Me109-F4ZTrop-I.3.JG27-Yellow14-(SL+KU)-WrkN8693-Flown-By-Leutnant-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-At-Martuba-Libya-February-1942-22f-s.jpg

I "imagine" the "Vorsicht beim Öffnen Kühler ist im Haubenteil eingebaut" stencil (absent or painted over on the other plane) is red or black or red and black on RLM 78 and the lower cowl area is a lot brighter than the RLM 78 but still a bit darker than the white right in front. So, I assume (I'm pretty much convinced, but I have no bullet proof evidence) the area is yellow.

 

Maybe next year somebody finds the remains of the plane in a Libyan junk yard or burried in the desert sand and the area turns out to be repainted RLM 65 (or some Italian paint or RAF paint) and not yellow? But until that moment I'm inclined to say "the lower cowl on that plane was yellow". So, if a convincing plane is a good looking plane, we have to try to get to the sources and evaluate by ourselves - and compare our findings with "the experts" and the "box art artists".

 

And as mentioned before, once the yellow (or not) cowl and white (or camouflaged) wing tips are decided on, we will talk about the landing gear and landing gear cover inside color (put a smiley here, and paint it RLM 02 except for the shiny part of the oleo strut)

[Graham Boak]

Houston: Profiles and colourized don't count.  No red rudder either, but with JG27 badge.  Surely the idea must have a firmer basis than these?

 

Jochen: the b&w photo just looks like a standard 78/79 scheme to me.

[Jochen Barett]

2 hours ago, HOUSTON said:

https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/threads/hans-joachim-marseille-bf-109f-4-trop-markings-and-paint.36637/

 

 

To me that plane looks like a G2, not like an F4 ... but it looks good.

 

PS: When it comes to "Marseille's 109 with the red rudder" there seems to be a consensus in box art artists: Hasegawa 1/32, Fine Molds 1/72, and Mistercraft 1/72

Edited November 26, 2020 by Jochen Barett

[JackG]

Going out on a limb, and will likely get flamed for it, but am going to suggest that yellow was the standard colour for all friendly identification of Luftwaffe aircraft, and it wasn't about identifying theater of operations.   This may mean the idea of 'theater colours' was a postwar western invention of thinking?

 

Yellow is also found in Northwest Europe, even as late as July 1944.  Before the introduction of the multi-coloured Reich defense bands, the units involved in defending Germany from the bomber offensive, began creating their own identification colours around mid 1943.  One of the first examples was a narrow white band by JG 11 - but wait, white is suppose to be Mediterranean?

 

The reason chosen for white in the Mediterranean, could very well have been influenced by the Italians (or at least an agreement made between the two axis powers).  Regia Aeronautica did have a few  squadrons already using white fuselage bands in late 1940.   Had they not been present,  it's quite possible the Luftwaffe would have continued with just yellow?

 

----------------------------------

 

As for distinguishing yellow from RLM 78 undersides in b/w photos good luck with that...

 

 

The above simulated in orthchromatic film, which same say closely resembles the type of film used at that time.  Note how difficult it can be to see differences, depending on who has it right for the RLM paint colours:

 

 

regards,

Jack

[Super Aereo]

Something that might or might not be related, is the use of yellow engine cowlings on Regia Aeronautica aircraft between April and 22 October 1941

[Jochen Barett]

5 hours ago, JackG said:

---

The above simulated in orthchromatic film, which same say closely resembles the type of film used at that time.  Note how difficult it can be to see differences, depending on who has it right for the RLM paint colours:

regards,

Jack

Some say orthochromatic film was still kinda common in Great Britain those days but almost "outdated" in Germany.

 

Looking at this one http://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW/Me109F4ZTrop-I.3.JG27-Yellow14-(SL+KU)-WrkN8693-Flown-By-Oberleutnant-Hans-Joachim-Marseille-Libya-North-Africa-1942-9.jpg (again), the red triangle stencil (specifying the engine oil) should/would appear black in a photograph taken with orthochromatic film. But the red triangle is brighter than the (worn) RLM 70 black-green prop blades and other really black areas.

 

Still even with panchromatic film I would not dare to tell sky blue from yellow or light grey or bright green or pink (or claim I could tell RLM 70/71 from 81/82) but I'm constantly perfecting my hybris.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Jochen Barett
typos

[JackG]

There is from the Stormo site at the bottom of this page a write up about yellow Italian cowls under the heading of 'Directives'.

https://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm

 

It suggests Regia Aeronautica may have adopted yellow noses at around the same time as the Luftwaffe arrived in 1941.  Less is known why this was stopped,  while the white fuselage band continued on - interestingly suggests it may have been viewed as an additional national marking.

 

regards,

Jack

[Super Aereo]

6 hours ago, JackG said:

There is from the Stormo site at the bottom of this page a write up about yellow Italian cowls under the heading of 'Directives'.

https://www.stormomagazine.com/RegiaAeronauticaColorsinWWII_3a.htm

 

It suggests Regia Aeronautica may have adopted yellow noses at around the same time as the Luftwaffe arrived in 1941.  Less is known why this was stopped,  while the white fuselage band continued on - interestingly suggests it may have been viewed as an additional national marking.

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

The introduction of yellow engine cowlings in the Regia Aeronautica coincided with the German intervention in Greece and Yugoslavia, during which LW aircraft adopted yellow quick-recognition markings, but it was (at least theoretically) a force-wide marking rather than just a theatre one.

 

A directive to stop applying the marking was issued on 22/10/1941 (this directive obviously did not apply to Italian Aircraft used on the Russian front)

[Graham Boak]

18 hours ago, JackG said:

Going out on a limb, and will likely get flamed for it, but am going to suggest that yellow was the standard colour for all friendly identification of Luftwaffe aircraft, and it wasn't about identifying theater of operations.   This may mean the idea of 'theater colours' was a postwar western invention of thinking?

The problem with this theory is that Luftwaffe aircraft of all types operating from North Africa consistently had white markings on the wingtips and cowlings, whereas this was not seen anywhere else.  If this is not a theatre marking what was it?  Similarly, if for a shorter period, aircraft in the Balkan campaign had yellow cowlings, elevator and rudders.  Again a unique combination.  Aircraft involved in the occupation of Vichy France had white bands on the wings, perhaps also on the fuselage?   A number of different styles of the yellow markings were seen at different times on what collectively is known as the Eastern Front.  Sometimes, early on, just a band extending from the vertical arm of the fuselage cross.  Later a yellow band on the fuselage, although the position varied.  Then in Hungary the V under with wing, wrapping around the leading edge.  Finally a yellow band around the nose.  So yes, the Luftwaffe did indeed commonly use yellow for distinctive markings, but not uniquely nor universally spread.  Different campaigns and areas of operations had their own individual instructions.  So perhaps the specific term "theatre markings" could be a Western term, or perhaps a free translation at best, but the principle is quite clear.

 

The use of Yellow in the desert has particular problems: the camouflage of the aircraft, particularly the early ones; the colours of the terrain; and the colour used by the other side (Middle Stone).  All of these suggest that yellow would be a very poor choice for a distinctive marking intended to stand out in the brief hurly-burly of combat.  Particularly given that the 109s were already emblazoned with black crosses, white noses and white wingtips.  How much more distinctive could they be?  Certainly not a patch of yellow under the nose.  I am a little surprised that no firmer reason has been put forward for the spread of this notion. 

 

However one comment above has me worried a little - is there doubt about the red rudder?  Somewhat naively, I've already "corrected" the tan.  Should I take a step back?

[JackG]

Totally agree, the use of white makings is prevalent in the Mediterranean.  For me, just the terminology  is odd (or just my interpretation?) - it's not about identifying an aircraft belonging to a specific theater, but rather more simply, identifying friendly aircraft.  I suppose it could be argued they are one in the same thing, so will leave it at that.

 

I too have considered white was chosen over yellow, as the latter would be not as visible when against a sand/tan colored aircraft.  On the undersides, it is less of  a problem when against the blue of RLM 79.  

 

One other interesting point from the Stormo site is that yellow cowls were to be applied right at the factory for Italian aircraft.   Wonder if the same thing was happening at some of the German aircraft plants?

 

 

regards,

Jack