spaddad Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Calling all Soviet experten, I need to find out what colours the hardened Soviet builders use for 'natural metal' finished a/c. It seems to me, from studying photo's, that a lot of soviet aircraft are either finished in a uniform 'colour' equivalent to the overall high speed silver on british a/c rather than actual nmf. (equivalent only in the overall uniformity of finish, not in similarity of paint used) or weather to an overall tone. I would appreciate any input on this subject, thanks, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 That's correct, most of "silver" soviet aircrafts are painted with a laquor with aluminium poweder rather than NMF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, spaddad said: It seems to me, from studying photo's, that a lot of soviet aircraft are either finished in a uniform 'colour' equivalent to the overall high speed silver on british a/c rather than actual nmf. (equivalent only in the overall uniformity of finish, not in similarity of paint used) or weather to an overall tone. the chap was one of the authors of Osprey MiG-15 aces book. So, yes, Dave, basically Aluminum paint. I don't how opaque, as you can see some panel differences, but it's not natural metal Perhaps @Aardvark could add some details. HTH T 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pin Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, Troy Smith said: I don't how opaque Opaque-opaque. No transparency whatsoever 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaddad Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Thank you gentlemen, much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Hello Dave, Finnish Air Force had MiG-15 UTIs, MiG-21 F13s and Ilyuschin Il-28s all in silver finish. Those planes were normally painted in the Soviet Union when they were sent back to the factory for major overhauls. Some notes based on these aircraft: - the silver paint chipped away easily along all leading edges and intakes - the painted surface darkened, lost it's shine and became "patched" - in MiG-21 F13s steel parts weren't painted but left in NMF at the factory - avoid that "chrome" silver look seen in some models; even when freshly painted those planes never looked chrome silver Kind Regards, Antti 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Absolutely agree with the fact that most Soviet aircraft were painted with varnish with the addition of silver powder. What we see on this photo Su-15: ???? Natural metal??? But if we look at inlet above stabilizer we see yellow colour! This yellow color is not on top of silver, it is under silver! As you may have guessed, this is either a primer or a plating metal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plating on which varnish mixed with silver powder is applied on top. The exceptions were very big & large aircraft such as the Sukhoi T-4 Sotka. Here they were in the colors of natural metal, namely, T-4 was in the colors of natural titanium. But where does the panel effect come from? The factories were mainly assembled from already painted panels. The percentage of aluminum powder in the varnish could be different within a certain tolerance. Therefore, if the wing was partly assembled from new panels and partly from those that were taken from the warehouse, then it is quite possible that a panel effect arose. But it could not be. Here are footage from the movie "Star on the wings" (1955) https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Звёзды_на_крыльях in which the real planes were shot. Do you see a panel effect on the wing? But on this footage we see panels effect on fuselage : B.R. Serge P.S. Look at the leading edge stabilizer Su-15 in the photo! See, there is a yellow color too.... Edited January 17, 2019 by Aardvark 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Good evening Serge, at least in Finnish MiGs and Ilyuschins steel (and those few titanium) parts were left unpainted as the paint doesn't stick into them. The aircraft were painted only after when all components were assembled. So the panel effect was caused by both painted and unpainted panels side by side (especially on the wings of MiG-21 F-13 where the SPS systems blows hot air over the surface and on rear fuselage panels; just like in your photo). I've never seen that "yellow" paint/primer that is visible in your photo. A yellow primer was indeed used on Ilyuschins but it is best described as "dirty butter". Many individual components were painted with different primers (dark red, "dirty butter yellow", orange,...) on all Soviet built planes in Finnish service. Cheers, Antti 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 40 minutes ago, Antti_K said: at least in Finnish MiGs and Ilyuschins steel (and those few titanium) parts were left unpainted as the paint doesn't stick into them. The aircraft were painted only after when all components were assembled. As for steel, I agree! If you look at the pictures from the film that I cited, then you will see that the airbrake MiG-15 has a different color. As I recall, it’s because of airbrake MiG-15 from steel. 40 minutes ago, Antti_K said: So the panel effect was caused by both painted and unpainted panels side by side (especially on the wings of MiG-21 F-13 where the SPS systems blows hot air over the surface and on rear fuselage panels; just like in your photo). But this can not explain the presence of the panel effect in this photo: You will not argue that some of these fuselage panels of the MiG-15 are made of steel and some are made of aluminum? No, simply, different sections are painted in different workshops with varnish containing diffrent % aluminum powder, and then they were assembled together in the final assembly shop. 40 minutes ago, Antti_K said: I've never seen that "yellow" paint/primer that is visible in your photo I could then scratch any panel of this Su-15, and the result would be exactly the same, there would be yellow primer everywhere under silver. B.R. Serge P.S 40 minutes ago, Antti_K said: Good evening Serge, Nearer - night, Antti. Real, winter frozen night, with a pleasant - 5 degrees frost on celsius. 😁 B.R. Serge 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antti_K Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 You are right Serge, it's night already🙂 I was looking at that MiG-15 photo again and couldn't help myself thinking that some areas on the fuselage look like they weren't painted at all. You are absolutely right; the fuselage was made of aluminium. That much steel and it would have refused to fly at first place. The surface is how ever too dark and shiny and looks just like slightly weathered plain metal. That is of course only my interpretation. Building and finishing standards were light years apart when we compare MiG-15s and early MiG-21s. I haven't seen primer on the outer surfaces of MiGs or Ilyushins. The "silver paint" was applied directly on metal surface. And possibly that is why it chipped away rather easily. Your theory about a plating sounds reasonable. I've never seen any Sukhois except SU-24s. Minus nine Centigrades in here and dropping... Last winter was very cold here in South-western Finland when temperatures were below -25 degrees Celsius (even below 30 at times) for weeks. Cheers, Antti 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iainpeden Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The former Hungarian Mig-21 at Duxford is turning a rather strange light brown/green translucent colour as the laquer ages - and that is undercover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flankerman Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 20 hours ago, Antti_K said: the silver paint chipped away easily along all leading edges and intakes Here's a photo I took of a Su-15 at the Ukrainian Aviation Museum at Zhulaniy - it shows the laquer coating peeling away... The same aircraft has now had a repaint - in flat aluminium.... Ken 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spaddad Posted January 29, 2019 Author Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 11:43 AM, Flankerman said: Here's a photo I took of a Su-15 at the Ukrainian Aviation Museum at Zhulaniy - it shows the laquer coating peeling away... The same aircraft has now had a repaint - in flat aluminium.... Ken Thanks Ken, those 2 photos really hit the mark & sum up the subject perfectly, cheers, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aardvark Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Some explanation on aviation technology in Soviet Union. This is from a after WW2 Soviet textbook for students studying aircraft construction tenology. The author V.Bolkhvitinov. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bolkhovitinov http://alternathistory.com/tag/bolhovitinov/ (Yes, the one who designer DB-A: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolkhovitinov_DB-A BI-1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bereznyak-Isayev_BI-1 Aircraft "S" (Spartak or Sparka): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolkhovitinov_S https://topwar.ru/7036-i-12hm-107-dalniy-istrebitel-proekt-bolhovitinov-sssr-1940g.html As you can see from textbook fuselage consists of several sections: For mass production at the production plant each section is made by a separate workshop, then they are assembled in the assembly workshop. Coloring can occur either at the stage after the final assembly, or after the section has been assembled. Why can't we leave sections unpainted? Because no matter how you try to organize production, you will always have an excess of some parts and a lack of other parts! Therefore, you hypothetically, as an example, there may be many fuselages but there will be no wings. Therefore, the fuselage will have to be stored somewhere in anticipation of the wings. But aluminum is rapidly oxidized in air, so you need to protect it, that is, to paint. Now imagine that on one of these nodes, silver paint was slightly different in shade: (Yes, your eyes are not mistaken, as an example technology using the scheme building F-102, same textbook V.Bolkhvitinov) What do you get in the end? That's right, in the end there will be a panel effect. But not everything was so simple. Last week I read the handbook of aviation technology in 1974, it mentions two aviation varnishes to cover metal sheathing panels. Those. technology when the natural metal varnish was. The only problem is that since the mid-70s, camouflage scheme have already been introduced into the USSR Air Force. On 1/18/2019 at 2:43 PM, Flankerman said: Here's a photo I took of a Su-15 at the Ukrainian Aviation Museum at Zhulaniy - it shows the laquer coating peeling away... It seems to me that in this photo, a good example of an unsuccessful museum painting, paint designed for fences and gates with not for aircraft.....museum workers around the world are the same,😉 with rare exceptions. B.w. many aircraft/tank e.t.c. monuments repainted every year...usually to Victory Day. But usually this is a monument in the centers of cities, and of course everything depends on city budgets. B.R. Serge 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Modelraynz Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 (edited) They should have used alclad! 🤡 Edited January 31, 2019 by Modelraynz 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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