Royal Thailand Curtiss Hawk colours?

[JWM]

Hi

Anybody knows what kind of colours in camo had Royal Thai Curtiss Hawks, ( both Hawk 75 or Hawk III) during WWII. Was it two or three tone camos from top?

Machines in museum show three colours:

http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/3/9/5/1174593.jpg?v=v40

http://imgproc.airliners.net/photos/airliners/8/1/6/1176618.jpg?v=v40

 

https://weaponsandwarfare.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/srnnstg.jpg

but different authors shows the same machines as two or three tone scheme

Moreover - the three tones are sometimes presented as two green and tan (as USAF at Vietnam war) and sometimes as tan,  chesnut brown and dark green.

 

My both Thai Hawks (III and 75) on shelvs are in two tone but I am willing to correct if it is wrong...

Any comments wil be appreciated

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

Edited August 22, 2018 by JWM
mispelling corrections

[Magpie22]

Hi Jerzy,

Disregard the colours on the Hawks in the RTAF museum. I have spoken with the curators there and the colours on those aircraft are not accurate. They were chosen because they looked good. I believe they are based on USAF Vietnam era camouflage.

The photos I have seen would suggest only one colour, (probably green), on the upper surface. The RTAF started camouflaging their A/C in 1939. In early 1942 the roundel was replaced by a rectangle to avoid confusion with RAF aircraft. Circa 1943, they adopted an insignia showing a white elephant on a red field on some of their A/C.

The Hawks used against the French in January 1941 would have had the roundel, later aircraft the rectangle.

HTH

Peter

 

[JWM]

Hi Peter

Many thanks! I had I kind of feeling that I've read somwhere that colours on machines in RTAF are not the true one. I bacame suspicious when I realized that the colours really do look like a USAF Vietnam war one, including even white under surfaces...

My Hawk 75 has rectangle and Hawki III elephants

Regards

J-W

 

[occa]

The AC on this photo appears to wear a three tone upper camoflage

 

 

IMO a camouflage similar to the USAF Vietnam hues is not that farfetched

The terrain remained the same and therefore very similar colors could well have been used.

[JWM]

Martin, many thanks for this photo.  There are also interesting details like gun sight, light colour on main wing struts, light wheel hubs etc....

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

 

[occa]

Jerzy-Wojtek you can see an even lighter color on left elevator and a glimpse on the lower port wing just where the pic is cut ...

 

I'd say three tone upper surfaces indeed ...

 

Cheers,

Martin

[AMB]

Interesting, I have been to the RTAF Museum twice, firstly in 1981 and saw both the Hawk III and Hawk 75 painted overall silver with RTAF roundels. Then went back there this year and they were both now camouflaged. The Hawk III's colours were gloss and looked inaccurate. but the Hawk 75 looked the part. I was actually wondering if they were actually silver in service?

[JWM]

 

8 hours ago, AMB said:

I was actually wondering if they were actually silver in service?

Maybe they were stripped off the paint after war? Here http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/thailand-ww2.html a profile of 75 N in NMF is shown. But more likely they were delivered as all silver, I susspect, I do not know.

BTW - there is an intersting short article on RTAF at WWII

https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2017/05/31/royal-thai-air-force-rtaf/

Cheers

J-W

 

 

[Randy Lutz]

When I built my Thai Curtiss Hawk I used Xtracolor X391 French Vert Fonce,  X614 East German MiG 29 Brown and X138 ADC Grey FS 16473,  I chose these colours based on the few photos I could find which showed low contrast between the upper surface colours and the information (maroon and dark green) provided by Gerry Beauchamp in his book on the Curtiss Hawks.

 

 

 

 

Cheers

Randy

[JWM]

 

2 hours ago, Randy Lutz said:

When I built my Thai Curtiss Hawk I used Xtracolor X391 French Vert Fonce,  X614 East German MiG 29 Brown and X138 ADC Grey FS 16473,  I chose these colours based on the few photos I could find which showed low contrast between the upper surface colours and the information (maroon and dark green) provided by Gerry Beauchamp in his book on the Curtiss Hawks.

Very nice Hawk!

 

In past I 've build two RTAF Hawks - the Hawk 75 N converted from Monogram 1/72 P 36 A: 

and Hawk III , which I converted from Monogram F 11 C.

 

The conversion of Hawk 75 N I did some 20 years ago, but the Hawk III was build exactly 38 years ago. Now I am doing some restoration of this Hawk III. I added riging by EZ (my original build was without riging) and I am replacing hand painted Elephant insignia (which were all looking left) to a decals by Kora. Since after riging I have to restore surfaces and therfore all painting requires re-work. I thought this could be good opportunity to change colours to proper one. I have found that Hawk III was in use till 1949, (from 1935) so diferent patterns could be applied in different time. Therfore I am not sure about three tone scheme and elephant insignias existing together. In classic article (Air Enthusiast, I think) the scheme was two tone, so likely I will keep this interpretation in my restoration....

I will show the result on RFI

Regards

Jerzy-Wojtek

[jimmaas]

I'd like to add a couple of things - first, here is a web page you should copy and save: Wing/Squadron markings  It is the only place I have seen the monkey markings and geometric shapes explained.  I can't vouch for its authenticity but feels legitimate.

 

Second, there's a color photo (and I've never been able to insert photos on this site) of a section of Martin 139 wing (B-10 export version) in Thailand.  Clearly badly weathered.  There are two colors, the closest I can describe them is close to the fifth illustration in this thread's original post.  Two caveats - it is weathered, and may be a very battered relic from one of the ex-Dutch Martins (painted in two greens) the Thais got via the Japanese; there is evidence of an underlying coat of yellow paint and I don't know if that rules the original Thai machines out or not.  If someone can post photos here, pm me and I'll send the photo to you.

[JohnMacG]

Thai AF colours; a fraught subject! There are virtually no photographs to prove anything.

Let's look at that nice Hawk III pic above. First camo:  it does look very low contrast, one shade only, but look at the top of the tailplane - clearly two colours; possibly a low-contrast green/brown scheme?

The square symbol on the fin looks like a stylised Thai number '2'.

The triangle on the fuselage is a unit marking. Some explanation is required. In 1939-40 the Thai (Siamese) AF had 5 wings, each of which was identified by a specific colour & a character from the Ramanaya folk opera, as shown on the Hawk 75 & Hawk IIi side views These are all very similar, it would take an expert to tell them apart (I can't).

No.1 wing's colour was red; No.2's was violet; No.3's yellow; No.4's blue and No.5's leaf green.

The shape of the insignia denotes the squadron inside the wing - No.1 squadron was  a violet circular outline,  No.2 was a light blue diamond outline and No.3 was a triangle in grey (or possibly yellow).

This Would be the colour scheme carried during the Franco-Thai War.

 

Now for the Hawk 75N.  First, a little history (sorry!). in January 1942 Tha9iland officially allied herself with Japan. It would SEEM that this was when the pre-war Thai roundels (which could too easily be mistaken for RAF roundels) were replaced by the 'flag' insignia and the fuselage white stripe added (to comply with JAAF practice.

BTW photo evidence for the 'flag' insignia is VERY thin; that pic of a Hawk 75 with 'flags' (which comes from a mid-1942 Japanese aviation paper) is the only one I've seen with 'flags'.

 

Lastly, there was a small Thai naval air arm; it SEEMS that their a/c retained the pre-war roundels and rudder stripes throughout the war.

[Magpie22]

John,

 

I agree that Thai AF colours is a fraught subject. The records of the Thai Department of Defence are still closed - there may be some info there if they are ever opened. I was working with the RTAF Engineering division in BKK when the museum decided to repaint the Hawks. The museum staff were unable to determine the colours used on the wartime A/C. They were looking at some of my Spitfire and Kittyhawk photos and thought that the brown and green on the Kitty looked nice. Not very deep research! That is why I said disregard the colours on the restored A/C.

 

The Hawk II, Hawk III, (both Curtiss and Thai built), and Hawk 75N were all delivered in 'silver' finish. Martins, Corsairs, Boeing 100s, Ki-30s, etc were also all finished in 'silver'. Camouflage was first applied to RTAF aircraft in 1939. Based on photos, (yes, very few), it would appear that initially only the upper surfaces were painted, the under surfaces remaining 'silver'. Later. under surfaces were also camouflaged, and there is some evidence to suggest that upper surfaces received a second colour. Colours used? Unknown to me. Conjecture: early RSAS aircraft received from France, (Spads, Nieuports and Breguet 14s), as well as the locally designed Boripatra and Phrajadhipok were camouflaged, so the paint used may have been from supplies for maintaining these aircraft?

 

The 'flag' style of national marking was adopted in early 1942, but its use seems to have been limited. The adoption of the white fuselage band may have been a result of receiving Ki-27 aircraft so marked. As to the RTN aircraft, as far as I am aware the RTN acquired six Watanabe Type 90 A/C, intended for shipboard use, early in 1939. They saw limited service for coastal patrol work, but the navy lost interest in an air arm and had no aircraft by the time of the alliance with Japan. So they never retained the roundel - they never had any aircaft, apart from some seconded by the RTAF. It was 1950 before they established an air arm again.

 

Incidentally, I think the number on the fin of that Hawk III, above, is 24.

 

Peter

 

[JohnMacG]

The Thai Navy did have a/c during the war; the Japanese supplied some (6?) E8Ns (or possibly E4Ns -the few photos are unclear) and later received 6 E13A 'Jakes' photos exist. The E13As are pictured in standard Thai roundel & fin stripes, but whether the pics are wartime or post-war is unknown.

[Randy Lutz]

On 8/27/2018 at 5:24 PM, JohnMacG said:

 

Now for the Hawk 75N.  First, a little history (sorry!). in January 1942 Tha9iland officially allied herself with Japan. It would SEEM that this was when the pre-war Thai roundels (which could too easily be mistaken for RAF roundels) were replaced by the 'flag' insignia and the fuselage white stripe added (to comply with JAAF practice.

BTW photo evidence for the 'flag' insignia is VERY thin; that pic of a Hawk 75 with 'flags' (which comes from a mid-1942 Japanese aviation paper) is the only one I've seen with 'flags'.

 

Lastly, there was a small Thai naval air arm; it SEEMS that their a/c retained the pre-war roundels and rudder stripes throughout the war.

A quick search on the internet revealed two photos of a Hawk 75 in camo with the flag markings on wings and fin.  Not sure if this is the same aircraft in both photos, but it does support the flag marking theory.  Not sure if I am allowed to post these images, as it does say they are copyrighted, but my model was based on these images.   

 

Not sure it it helps.

 

Cheers

Randy

[jimmaas]

One correction to my post above.  The wing I described was not ex-Thai but ex-Dutch, per Max Schep (many thanks!).  So it ia not related to the Thai camouflage question.  The fuselage insignia link cited is still valid though.

[Magpie22]

11 hours ago, jimmaas said:

One correction to my post above.  The wing I described was not ex-Thai but ex-Dutch, per Max Schep (many thanks!).  So it ia not related to the Thai camouflage question.  The fuselage insignia link cited is still valid though.

Jim,

I did not intend to imply that your comments re the wing were incorrect. I knew the original RTAF aircraft were delivered in 'silver', so assumed that it may have been one of the ex-Dutch aircraft, and ignored that in my comments.

Researching Thai military aviation is as bad as researching that great boon to military aviation, the Buff!!

Cheers,

Peter

[Magpie22]

16 hours ago, Randy Lutz said:

A quick search on the internet revealed two photos of a Hawk 75 in camo with the flag markings on wings and fin.  Not sure if this is the same aircraft in both photos, but it does support the flag marking theory.  Not sure if I am allowed to post these images, as it does say they are copyrighted, but my model was based on these images.   

 

Not sure it it helps.

 

Cheers

Randy

Randy,

 

As you found, there are two readily available photos, (the same A/C), of a Hawk 75N carrying the 'flag' marking. The question that I think John was posing, and I am certainly asking, is: "Were there other RTAF aircraft marked with the 'flag' marking, or did it apply only to the Hawk 79, or perhaps only to that Hawk 75?" 

 

BTW, I like your model!! I've modelled the same machine, (45?), but elected to do mine in a single green on top over 'silver'. I don't have Gerry's book, (only his Mohawks over Burma), so don't know his evidence for his colour call-out. As far as I am concerned, the photos are inconclusive in this regard.

 

Cheers,

Peter

[Magpie22]

19 hours ago, JohnMacG said:

The Thai Navy did have a/c during the war; the Japanese supplied some (6?) E8Ns (or possibly E4Ns -the few photos are unclear) and later received 6 E13A 'Jakes' photos exist. The E13As are pictured in standard Thai roundel & fin stripes, but whether the pics are wartime or post-war is unknown.

I stand corrected.  I can only plead brain fade.

 

The E8N 'Daves' were delivered in 1940 and were, I believe, out of service before the Japan alliance. The E13 'Jakes' were received during 1944, and some remained in service after the war. So, yes the RTN did have some A/C during the Japanese 'Alliance'.

 

Peter,

(donning sackcloth and ashes.)

[JWM]

Fianlly I did restoration of my almost 40 years old scratch converted RTAF Hawk III using two tone (marron/dark green) variant, as my Hawk 75n was painted also

 

Many thanks for all comments and informations about RTAF which appeared here. So many things left obscured, though ....

Regards

J-W

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by JWM