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Everything posted by Magpie22

  1. These help? Magic 2 mounted on RAAF Mirage IIIO. Note the opaque seeker dome: the Magic I had a tranparent dome. An upgraded seeker was fitted to the Magic 2. Note that this is a Mirage IIIO, not a Mirage IIIC as refered to in Selwyn's query. Peter M
  2. Yes, the Foliage Green was free sprayed, using the original pattern as a template. However, I suspect that the Azure Blue area may have been masked off as there is little evidence of green overspray in that area. On a very few aircraft you can see where the Foliage Green has impinged onto the Azure Blue, but this is the exception rather than the rule. Peter M
  3. Hi Ray, First a correction to that article you quoted. My comment,"IFF wires were removed from most RAAF Spitfires. They were not on any of the Spitfires depicted in these sheets" is incoreect. They were removed later in the war from most RAAF Spitfires, but were fitted to aircraft that saw service in the Darwin area. Those IFF wires were on BS219!! I don't have the DK decal sheet, but they appear to have gotten the colour scheme for BS219 correct. It was a Supermarine built A/C, originally finished in the DFS, repainted in the desert scheme before being shipped to to Australia, and repainted yet again by the RAAF, overpainting the Middle Stone in Foliage Green. Its camouflage then was RAF Dark Earth and RAAF Foliage Green on the upper surfaces with RAF Azure Blue on the undersurfaces. When the squadron was re-equipping at Camden, most of the 'B' Flight aircraft and some of the 'A' Flight aircraft aquired RAAF Sky Blue spinners and RAAF Sky Blue bands around the rear fuselage. Perhaps this was trying to emulate the Sky spinners ind fuelage bands that were on the Spitfire VB aircraft that the squadron flew in the UK, or perhaps it was a way of trying to distinguish themsleves from the other squadrons in the wing. The colours of the emblem is a matter of interpretaion, (you are on your own there!), but the pointing finger is a little dissappointing. Jiminy is 'giving the finger', not pointing. The 'owner' of BS219 was Flight Sergeant Rex Wyndham Watson. He was one of the oldest fighter pilots in the RAAF, having been born in the UK in 1909. Twenty years later he emmigrated to Australia. When he wanted to enlist in the RAAF as a pilot, he was too old at 31, but he successfully managed to convince the recruiters that he was five years younger. He also managed to conceal that he had a 'wonky' knee from a motor cycle accident and passed the medical. He joined No. 457 Sqn in the UK in 1942, flew a few ops there, and returned to Australia, with the squadron in August 1942. Below are some photos that may be of use. Some you will have seen in the article you quoted, but I thought it best to bring them all together here. 1. Camden, late 1942. These photos clearly show the diffence in tone between the Sky Blue of the code letter, fuselage band, and spinner, and the white of the roundel and fin flash. Note that the gun heater tubes are still fitted to the engine exhausts at this time. In the second and third photos the IFF wires from fuselage to tailplane can be seen, as can the wide cannon feed fairings. 2. Livingstone Strip, Feb/March 1943. She has now acquired the 'Jiminy Cricket' emblem, but no victory markings yet. Rex claimed his first victory, in his first skirmish with the enemy, on 15 March 1943. He is second from right in the first shot and still as a Flight Sergeant in the last shot. Note that the gun heater tubes had been removed from the exhausts by this time. This proved to be an error as the air at altitude could still be quite cold, even over Darwin. In the lower two shots the original squadron code 'XB', that was applied in early March, can be seen. 3. Millingimbi, 10 May1943. F/O "Bush" Hamilton often flew BS219. On 9 May, when on standby, BS219 went US and he was unable to take off when Zeros attacked the advanced base. He stayed with the aircraft and used his radio to relay messages to those airborne. Rex Watson was airborne in another aircraft and scored his second victory that day. The IFF wire is also visible in this shot, not the white mark passing through the upper roundel - that is a mark on the print - but as the white line just visible above the 'P' of the code. 4. Livingstone, late May1943 A newly commissioned Rex Watson sits proudly, with Jiminy 'giving the finger' to the two Japanese flags. "Bush" Hamilton also cracks a big grin for the camera. Rex gained his final victory, a half share in a 'Dinah' at 31,000 feet, on 17 August. He softened it up, but suffered cannon failure, so he puuled aside and let another pilot finish it off. The two shots with "Bush' are interesting from a modelling point of view. I often see models with open cockpits and the seat belts neatly on the seat. This was rarely the case. The shoulder straps were generally passed back over the top of the armour plate so that they sat down the rear, the right strap was generally passed over the cockpit coaming, and the left strap was inside the cockpit, to the left of the seat. This was so the pilot could jump into the aircaft and, with the aid of ground crew, quickly strap in, without having to retrieve harness from between his back and buttocks, and the seat.
  4. Yes and no. This is the full shot. QY-S, in the foreground, does not appear to have the red patches over the mg's, but does have one over the gun camera port in the wing root. I have other shots that show light coloured patches. so one cannot infer any standard practice. Peter M
  5. "Far East"?? The RAAF had their own practices, not those of the RAF in the Far East. A58-427, (LV652), was received from the UK finished in 'desert camouflage', and carrying full RAF roundels and fin flash. After arrival she was repainted in the RAAF colours of Foliage Green over Sky Blue. The roundels and fin flash were modified to meet RAAF standard. On the fuselage roundel. the resd was overpainted with white, the yellow outer ring with camouflage, and the width of the blue and white adjusted to meet RAAF specifications. In the referenced photo of her in the knacker's yard at Oakey, several years after the war, the white paint is falling away from the roundel revealing the original red circle. If you look at the fin flash you can see that only the red has been overpiant leaving a flash where the white section is of greater width than the blue. Below is a photo of A58-427 when in service with No. 452 Sqn, circa May/June 1945. You can clearly see the form the fuselage roundel took when she was operational. There is an error in the caption with the photo on the Spitfire Site. A58-427 was not Coded QY-D befroe becoming QY-X. After being received by the squadron in March 1945, she was coded QY-O for a time, until she was recoded QY-X. A58-518, ex CR-C, became QY-O at that time. Squadron Leader Birch's aircraft, from December 1944, was A58-500, QY-D. It was replaced by A58-636, QY-D, in May 1945. After Birch left the squadron at the end of May, A58-636 was flown by his successor, Squadron Leader Barclay. Peter M
  6. Graham, I concur re your comments on time lines of thse two A/C - both post war designs, Wing sweep probably based on German research. There were a couple of other Russian rocket powered A/C developed during WW II in addition to the BI - the Tikhonarov, (Kostikov), 302, and Florov 4302. There was also the Mikoyan I-270, flown in 1947, but also unswept wing. I believe that last A/C is probably an early proposal of the Bisnovat B-5 which was developed in the late 1940s as a project for research on swept wings at Mach 1+. It was also post Ts-1, and bears an uncanny resemblance to the DFS 346 which was taken to the Soviet Union after WW II. Note also the tine engine installation. It was air-launched fom beneath a Pe-8. Peter M
  7. Yes, the Tsybin given a couple of pages in Gordon and Gunston's Soviet X-planes, Midland, 2000. They state that Ts-1 was commissioned by the LII-MAP in September 1945, so not strictly a WWII project. LL-1, the straight wing version, (apparently made of wood!), made some 30 flights, but did not reach Mach 1. The second A/C was built as the LL-2, (forward sweep), made some 100 flights and reached Mach 0.97. The first A/C was modified with a swept back wing but never flew in that configuration. Peter M
  8. Ah, the subtle art of developing skin lines! Takes me back many years to my time learning aircraft lofting, and then putting it into practice, (for a short time only, until I got a better job in the wind tunnel ), putting it into practice on the loft floor. That was a long time ago!! I'm quite ancient. Peter M
  9. Hi Finn, BR114 also flew some 8+ ops, in May 1943, with No. 451 Sqn RAAF, so will fit nicely into your RAAF collection. Peter M
  10. I second Peter's comments. Good company, well researched decals. Peter M
  11. A few more USAAF P-40F/L shots. Colour shots are of little value in determining hues of colour, but can help in determining the basic colour. Make your own judgements. As you can see the hues of the Mid Stone and Dark Earth vary markedly in the reproductions. I won't comment on filters used or not used, processing of transparency, reproduction as print, any editting, etc, etc.. Peter M
  12. Blue filters were very rarely used in b/w photography. Their only earthly use was for exagerating haze in the background to gain a 'mystical' effect. If you really wanted your pan film to look more like an ortho film, a blue filter would help to do that, but a blue filter with ortho film is a waste of time.
  13. Don't try to judge the shade of blue from a B/W print. I believe that this shot was probably taken using panchromatic film with a red/yellow filter on the lense. The use of a red/yellow filter was very popular with photographers, (particularly professionals), using b/w film, both orthochromatic and panchromatic. It was used so that blues, specifically the sky background, reproduced as a darker shade on the print, got away from that washed out appearance, and gave a good contrast with the white/grey of clouds. Note how 'black' the blue of the roundels and fin flash appear on this print. If a filter had not been used, the blue tone of the roundels would still have reproduced as a dark tone, but not as 'black' as in this print. If I am correct in my assumption re film/filter combination, the PRU Blue would also appear much darker than it would if the pic had been taken without a R/Y filter. I have often seen the same mistake made when some interpret the under surface colour of desert Kittyhaks as Mediterannean Blue, or some such, rather than Azure Blue. Trying to interpret shades of blue from a b/w print is a mug's game. Don't rely on the subjective information transmitted to your brain by your eye, it is not accurate when viewing b/w prints. As has been said before, you need to understand the chemistry of b/w films and the effect of different lens filters on them, to try and come to some small understanding of what you are looking at. In this case my vote is for Medium Sea Grey over PRU Blue. That's what the orders required and, until documentation is produced to prove otherwise, I believe that is far more significant evidence than trying to interpret prints maded from b/w film. Peter M
  14. Ray, she was stripped at No. 1 AD, Laverton. They would have had the chemicals and pesonnel to do a good job. I was told, (and this by only one ex 1 AD erk), that normal stripping procedure for A/C, not just Spits, was to remove all control surfaces, (fabric ones were rebagged), the cockpit canopy, (which was scraped back by hand, as the chemical destroyed the perspex). Doors were removed from the U/C and treated separately. Wheels and U/C legs, windscreen and other transparencies, were covered to protect them. The A/C was taken to a special external bay, where the paint stripper was applied, by brush, to the aircraft in sections at a time. Erks then attacked it with wire, (yes wire - I assume soft brass type), and scrapers. The whole thing was then washed down with hoses. I asked him if they polished the aircraft afterwards. His answer was, 'not bloody likely!'. I can't give a definitive answer to stripping inside the radiator and wheel wells, but I suspect it was done as it would be difficult to keep the stripper out when applying it to the main areas. A58-303 had the tri-colour signalling lamp in the starboard wing undersurface. It did not have lamps under the port wing or rear fuselage. The bottom shot on p. 29 of Aussie Eight shows that no lamp is installed under the port wing. The invereted shot at the top of p. 28 is interesting, in that while it shows there is no under fuselage lamp, it does show where, one bay forward of the bay where the lamps was normally fitted, there is an opening, where I believe there was where a beam approach aerial was briefly fitted for trials. Peter M
  15. Hi Graham, Sorry if my comments upset you. I did put minor in inverted commas in my post. I am well aware of the Mk.VIII's aerodynamic and structural improvements, and its place in the development of subsequent Spitfire versions. I had in mind the number produced when I used the word "minor". Approx figures from memory: Mk. I and Mk.II - 2,400 Mk. V - 6500 Mk. IX and XVI - 6500 Mk. VIII - 1600 I lump MKI and II, and MK.IX and XVI, together as they were essentailly the same aerodynamically and structurally. Peter M
  16. Troy, My apologies if my comment seemed abrupt. It was just that I failed to see any connection between Paul's Spitfire XVI model and Rich's post re Spitfire VIII camouflage patterns. I seem to have aquired a reputation as a Spitfire expert, but that is not the case. My principal area of research is the RAAF in WWII, particularly in the SWPA. Obviously Spitfires are a part of that, but not a major part. As an aeronautical engineer, (retired), I like to understand my subjects as much as possible, so have not limited my research to operations, colour schemes etc, but also try to understand the "nuts and bolts" of the aircraft involved. I leave the "heavy" research up to Graham and Gingerbob. Where I feel that I can contribute to a thread I do. Over the years, I have collected a lot of archival and photographic information. I do not regard this material as my property, but merely that I am its guardian while I have it. Anything I have is open to all. A Spitfire VIII detail thread - a fascinating thought. The VIII was only a 'minor' variant of the Spifire line but the modifications incorporated were many - standards of build, wing tips, rudder, engine, etc; armament mods; bomb racks; ID lights; U/C struts: are some of the more obvious. It is interesting to read reports from the the RAAF erection units on the differences in Spitfires as they arrived: things like deletion of U/C warning horn, throttle mods, changes to elevator shrouds, fuel pumps, roller bearings replacing ball bearings, mods to flap control valves, and that is just a list involving about ten to twenty aircraft. Of couse, many of these changes also involved changes in the cockpit, e.g. fitting bomb selection and release equipment to RAAF A/C- one reason I never get too uptight about the "office" configuration in my models. Throughout the Spifire's life in the RAAF, the Directorate of Technical Services issued a continual series of modification orders, technical orders and instructions, many based on those raised in the UK, and also local mods, as it did with all types. Of course many of these are of no interest to most modellers, but I find that they help balance the picture. I suspect that you have a similar approach with the Hurricane. And, as I said, the VIII was only a minor variant. I feel for those trying to understand the variations and mods of the whole production range. Shacklady and Morgan attempted this in their "magnum opus", and they only scratched the surface! Just for reference, attached are rough sketches I did of the patterns of the camouflage around the nose on Mk.VIII Spitfires for Eduard. They chose note to illustrate the schemes, but rely on the verbal description and their main illustrations. Supermarine Keevil Chattis Hill Chattis Hill - Late - HF (DFS) Finally, Paul, I apologise for hijacking your thread. Model is looking good, BTW. Peter M
  17. Hi Troy, I fail to see the connection between what I wrote re Spitfire VIII aircraft and the model bing built. What he has on his model looks OK to me. Cheers, Peter
  18. Thanks for spelling that out, Bob. I didn't want to further cloud my post by going into that detail. It crosses the 't's and dots the 'i's. Hopefully we won't have to spell it all out again. This topic has come up so many times. Cheers, Peter M
  19. All RAAF Spitfire Mk.VIII aircraft had downward identification lamps. There were two types fitted. 1. The initial type was a result of Mod 746 promulgated in October 1942. It was single unit fitted flush with the under surface of the starboard wing. Its position is shown in the drawing posted by Biggles 81 in post #1279. In photos, it can be seen, just outboard of the roundel. It consisted of a clear lamp, beneath which was a rotatable disc containing red, green and amber transparencies. It was controlled by a unit on the starboard side of the cockpit, (item 58 in my post #1256), consisting of a switch, a morse key, and a colour selector. The pilot selected the colour of the day and used the morse key to send the letter(s) of the day to identify himself as friendly. Not many RAAF aircraft carried this type of downward identification lamp. It was fitted to JF serialled aircraft and JG serialled aircraft up to at least JG174, this latter first flying in mid-September 1943. A58-315, (JF934), below, is an example. The lens for the unit can be seen just outboard of the roundel. It has not been painted over – its dull appearance may just be due to the filters behind it absorbing, rather than reflecting light. 2. The second type was introduced as a result of Mod 989, promulgated in May 1943. Three individual lamps were introduced: a green one in the starboard wing in the same position as the original unit, a red one in the port wing in the same position, and an amber one under the rear fuselage. The principle of operation was the same as for the initial unit, selecting colour and morsing the code letter. The first RAAF aircraft that I can verify fitted with this set up is JG350, (A58-393), first flown in October 1943. All subsequent JG serialled and all MB, MD, PA, MT and MV aircraft had this arrangement. Note there was normally a gap from an instruction being promulgated until it was incorporated in production aircraft. Drawings had to be prepared, checked, issued to the subcontractor, the part manufactured and, finally, fitted to aircraft on the production line. Temora’s VH-HET, A58-758, MV239, clearly displays this set up. Fasttery, in post #1275, voices some scepticism that Spitfires were flown at night. As well as regular night patrols in northern Australia, they also flew at night from Morotai, Labuan and Tarakan. F/O Jack Pretty, F/L George Scrimgeour, F/L John Campbell, and F/O Jack King were all involved in night kills. Those ops are covered in my book “Aussie Eight”, released by Eduard. Peter M
  20. Ray, Shots of inst panel and port side of cockpit attached for the record. You won't find the voltage regulator in the cockpit. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure wher it was located. I will see what I can find. @gingerbob @Graham Boak may know. Peter M
  21. Troy and Peter, I have strong doubts that the aircraft in the head on shot is X4382? What is the source of that info? I don't have that issue of Flypast so can't check the original source. Peter (Basilisk) stated that the head on shot was taken at the same time as the side shot of X4382 that he posted. That is clearly not the case. In the head on shot the main wheels are in shadow - in the side shot they are in sunlight. The prop is positioned differently in each shot. The tail wheel is at different angles in each shot. The trolley-acc is in a different position in each shot. I agree with your, and Peter's (Roberts), hypothesis about a repaint from the earlier black/white under surfaces is correct, but are we trying to compare apples and oranges here. I would like to see some positive confirmation that the head on shot is of X4382. Too many Peters in this thread!! Cheers, Peter M @Troy Smith @Peter Roberts
  22. Magpie22

    BIG brass ones!

    And you also learn something new everyday. If you scroll down to the info section you will see that Supermarine was located on Long Island, New York. Must be correct - it's on the internet!! Peter M
  23. Are you thinking of L4448? This was shipped from the UK in October 1939. It sat around for a while, eventually being converted from Taurus to P&W power. It first flew in Aus in May 1941. Early production aircraft, and this would have included T5940, benefitted from the import of some components and sub assemblies. I doubt that this would have had an effect on the camouflage of the finshed A/C. Peter M
  24. "As I was typing this Magpie 22 has supplied the illustration. Talk about teamwork." That's what we Aussies are all about!! Peter M
  25. Installation in Spitfire VIII. External. Internal. Items 68 and 69 are IFF.
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