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Jon Kunac-Tabinor

Airfix P-40B Tomahawk 1/48th - It's Arrived!!!!!

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it's seems...
- USAAC P40, the illuminator N3 was fixed on the floor and a reflector screwed into the windshield forward the armour glass, this bullet proof had a lateral offset.
- AVG P40, a reflector hanging behind the armour glass which was straight.
- RAF H81: MK II(?) gunsight behind the armour glass, mounting with cross beam

For all, an auxiliary sight( ring and bead sight) was mounted forward the windshield , 3" 25/32 offset right. it give a sight line parallel with sight line of optical gunsight.

the lines of sight was 32" 11/16 above  the c/l aircraft

Edited by BS_w

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8 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

Actually I have a question too.

 

RAF Tomahawks - gunsights. Were these fitted? or was the ring & bead all they had. And, If they were, how did they attach inside? Later P-40 variants have what I can only describe as a whacking big mount sticking out from the top of the instrument panel back into the 'pit

 

I know something was puzzling me

 

Jonners

RAF gunsite

Im doing this blind because I do not have the kit... but in looking at the instruction I do not see an RAF gun site included

 

Here are some incomplete notes

 

By the way.. note the grab bar on top of windscreen 

 

And note armor glass is it mounted straight on RAF AVG Tomahawks

 

But armor glass is at an angle to right on US P-40 due to gun-sight reflector mounted on windscreen glass (see below) 

 

RAF%20Tomahawk%20gun%20sight%20secondary  

 

US P-40 floor mounted gun site..(reflector is on the windscreen glass)

 

P36Sight.jpg 

 

US P-40 gun-sight reflector mounted on windscreen glass 

Armor glass (center photo) is mounted at angle to right due to gun-sight reflector

N1.jpg

Edited by HBBates

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58 minutes ago, 71chally said:

Superb info and work on this thread.

 

It's just occurred to me that what I thought was the first of the P-40 variants in RAF is this kitted Tomahawk II, what was the Tomahawk I?

Sorry not having better info right now.. I do no have my files right now .. just gabbing thing I had in my photobucket

For the Tomahawk I I think the main thing you need to look to at this scale is the antenna mast 

Below are some notes an spine detail .. for the RAF Tomahawk .. note the little blister light.. the same opening is patched over on the AVG Tomahawks 

 

SpinedetailCurtissH81TomahawkRAFAVGChina

TomahawkIIBAN343Nov1941001a1.jpg

Edited by HBBates

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Some other quick notes... lower cowl seam (so same as kit lower cowl seam) ...and

Tomahawklowercowl.jpgP40lowercowl.jpg

 

...Piano hinge line on the wing gun hatches (needs to added on kit I think)

p40bwinggun1.jpg   

 

 

Also the under left wing air temp probe (on US P-40's only)

p40bunderwing.jpg

 

 

Also on the Tomahawk the is a round hatch on the right side of the engine cowl.. it sometime left off in the field

 

Round hatch left off ( just above wing root fillet )

126iap.jpg 

 

Round hatch just aft of "smile lines" ( again just above wing root fillet )

(Note again Lower cowl single center line seam )

a2ec6ef66b9e02c88f6023e7df344f4e.jpg

 

Round hatch (again just above wing root fillet)   

(note on bottom photo.. disregard lower cowl "cheek seam".. this incorrect on the restoration copying later short nose P-40 cowls.. long nose cowl should only have single centerline seam as shown above)

P-40_stbd_engine_detail.JPG 

 

Final Note .. the "kink" in the Gun cowl to Engine cowl P-40%20gun%20cowl%20kink_zpsfg6xxvba.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by HBBates

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4 hours ago, HBBates said:

Tbolt what are you looking for? this seam between the upper and lower fuselage  its common to H75,81 &87 (P36 & early late P40)?

P40erik.JPG

 

 

 

4e4a22972338d88c_large

 

See the lap joint with the double row of rivets which runs right below the word light in the picture I posted and at the coming out the bottom of the outer gun barrel of this picture you posted, well Airfix have made this panel line double thickness when it runs below the cockpit area. You can see it here in the CAD, just above the wing to body fairing. To me it just looks like it is a normal panel join and I don't understand why Airfix went double wide on it.

 

p403.jpg

Edited by Tbolt

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Ok...i see that now.. i did see that in a few earlier photos but I thought it was just maybe it was a molding flaw

They did seem to somtimes confuse rivet lines and panal lines on the blueprints.. at least we know they we're looking at the blueprints ..

 

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9 hours ago, HBBates said:

Ok...i see that now.. i did see that in a few earlier photos but I thought it was just maybe it was a molding flaw

They did seem to somtimes confuse rivet lines and panal lines on the blueprints.. at least we know they we're looking at the blueprints ..

 

 

Yes the strange thing is you've seen the new B-17 - it seem to be missing quite a few panel lines on the nose, almost like they have interpreted them just as rivet lines!

Edited by Tbolt

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Hi, all,

 

On this amazing thing of the gunsight. The example in the National Naval Aviation Museum (whose website offers a "virtual tour" through the cockpit) doesn't show one (not surprising; it is a restoration) but neither shows a clear attachment point. See:

 

http://www.navalaviationmuseum.org/nnam/virtualtour/?s=pano701

 

Some old detail sets offer what looks like a N3 fixed to a frame that should portrude from the panel (probably the mountings in between the upper forward panel lip and the coaming in the image above);

 

http://www.internetmodeler.com/scalemodels/nraviation/Medallion-Models-1-48-P-40B-Upgrade-Set.php

 

But according to references, it should be an N2, which is markedly different.

 

http://www.aircraft-gunsights.com/

 

Probably someone owning one of those pilot's manuals for the appropriate type (most information is relevant for later P-40 models) will come with the proper answer.

 

Fernando

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It appears that the RAF  Tomahawks were delivered with ring and bead sights.  There is an image of a early  613 Sqn Tomahawk on Airliners net with the Ring and bead clearly visible. Can anyone confirm if some or all British delivered Aircraft were retrofitted with British GIII Reflector sights at some time?

 

Selwyn

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Gunsights were Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) and were installed at the MU or squadron level.  US-provided airframes were fitted with ring-and-bead sights just because they had to have something, but those rudimentary sights were typically removed from the aircraft and replaced with standard in-service reflector sights when in RAF service.

Edited by mhaselden

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16 minutes ago, mhaselden said:

Gunsights were Government Furnished Equipment (GFE) and were installed at the MU or squadron level.  US-provided airframes were fitted with ring-and-bead sights just because they had to have something, but those rudimentary sights were typically removed from the aircraft and replaced with standard in-service reflector sights when in RAF service.

 

I don't know much about P-40's, but I would have thought they would have kept the ring and bead as a backup? Most P-47's seem to have kept it (it was deleted from manufacture on the D-30 on). 

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Some with some without.  In truth, I'm finding more photos with the ring-and-bead retained than with it removed.

 

With:

Curtiss-Kittyhawk-MkI-RAF-112Sqn-GA-V-Ne

 

21054669.bbdce78e.640.jpg?r2

 

 

Without:

p-40_112_gap.jpg

 

Tomahawk_112_sqn_GA_O.jpg

 

 

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So - for an RAF Tomahawk Mk II I need a Barr & Stroud MkII reflector sight it seems - fitted behind ( i.e. cockpit side of ) the armoured internal glass with an extra curved support bar running across the cockpit.  No problemo!

 

I have to say the floor based gun sight, projecting up onto a reflecting glass fitted to the armoured internal windscreen on the USAAC P-40B seems like a weird way of fitting a gunsight!!  Mind you I always thought those telescope type sights ones sees on late WW1 and inter war aircraft seem a tad strange too: Cool looking, but to my mind, oddly impractical.

 

Cheers

 

Jonners

 

 

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About gunsight

- P40, P40G : N2A - illuminator only, on the floor (left)

- P40 B & C : N3  - illuminator only, on the floor (right)

gunsig10.jpg

 

 

- H 81 + Mk II

gunbsi10.jpg

 

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The AVG Tomahawks were delivered without guns, gunsights, radios or armour plate. All were installed after arrival in Burma. The radios were commercial RCA transceiver sets (RCA-7-H) intended for the Piper Cub. The armour plate was installed in October 1941 and required removal of the seat to instal. It included front, rear and head armour pieces.  

 

For the gunsight the AVG had to have an improvised sight mount for the reticle. There were no pre-drilled holes in the armoured glass of the RAF aircraft and no facilities to drill them. So the sight bracket was installed on the pilot's grab bar to hold the reticle for the N3A image projector, combined with the installation of ring and bead sights. The ring and bead sights were installed by lining them up with the sight reticle with the image projector switched on. Daniel Ford  mentions that not all the AVG Tomahawks had the jury rigged reflector sight and that some made do with just a ring and bead sight. 

   

Nick

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3 hours ago, BS_w said:

About gunsight

- P40, P40G : N2A - illuminator only, on the floor (left)

- P40 B & C : N3  - illuminator only, on the floor (right)

gunsig10.jpg

 

 

- H 81 + Mk II

gunbsi10.jpg

 

Thanks I was looking for that gunsight drawing that comes straight from the H81 Tomahawk manual

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Question

Are any of the UK members anywhere near the Imperial War Museum... they do have in the collection an original Curtiss H81a2 Tomahawk service manual ..its quite detailed with photos and blueprint drawings...I only have a scan of a few pages.. that gunsight sightline drawing is one

Edited by HBBates

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6 hours ago, Jon Kunac-Tabinor said:

So - for an RAF Tomahawk Mk II I need a Barr & Stroud MkII reflector sight it seems - fitted behind ( i.e. cockpit side of ) the armoured internal glass with an extra curved support bar running across the cockpit.  No problemo!

 

I have to say the floor based gun sight, projecting up onto a reflecting glass fitted to the armoured internal windscreen on the USAAC P-40B seems like a weird way of fitting a gunsight!!  Mind you I always thought those telescope type sights ones sees on late WW1 and inter war aircraft seem a tad strange too: Cool looking, but to my mind, oddly impractical.

 

Cheers

 

Jonners

 

 

Just a quick note Jonners, the Aldis tube sights you mention were collimated (optically aligned) but not telescopic, Its a oft repeated fallacy. They did produce a few trials telescopic types but  the act of making them telescopic drastically reduced the sight  field of view, which is not a good thing in a gunsight.

 

Aldis sights usually had an attached ring and bead sights fitted on one side as well, as a backup.

 

Selwyn

Sorry about drifting off the thread everyone!

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On 04/11/2016 at 6:09 PM, HBBates said:

Question

Are any of the UK members anywhere near the Imperial War Museum... they do have in the collection an original Curtiss H81a2 Tomahawk service manual ..its quite detailed with photos and blueprint drawings...I only have a scan of a few pages.. that gunsight sightline drawing is one

 

I am there next month with my Students, I am using their classrooms over about two weeks, however I will get some free time. Time to have a look I think at the service manual

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1 hour ago, chuckb1 said:

 

I am there next month with my Students, I am using their classrooms over about two weeks, however I will get some free time. Time to have a look I think at the service manual

If you can in any way find out about possibility of geting a digital scan copy I've been really grateful and pay you for it.

 

When I contact them some years back they said they couldn't do that.

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I will just do it If I have time and enough printing credit with them

 

I will go down the teaching resources route. We are covering the War in the Far East and the rise of the Japanese Empire post the Boxer uprising for the students war and conflict units. Topical for them at it is 75 years since Pearl Harbour etc.

 

We start on Assignment 2 in January so will be then

 

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Hi folks,

 

While I've nothing primary on the AVG and RAF Tomahawk sights, I can add a bit on the Air Corps sights.  As BS_w noted, the N-2 was originally installed in the P-40 (and, therefore, the P-40G) while the N-3 was standard for the P-40B and C.  Both sights could be mounted on the floor, with the reflector attached to the windscreen; both sights could also be attached to a reflector housing and mounted on the instrument panel.  The floor mount was a problem - the fuselage would flex during maneuvers, shifting the reticle all over the place.  Also, the perspex windscreen flexed in the sun and slipstream, shifting the reflector all over the place.  Accurate sighting became an issue.  Mounting the sights as a single unit ended that problem, but there wasn't a lot of space, particularly with the armored glass installed.

 

The armored glass was originally installed squarely on all these aircraft, but it reflected  ghost reticle in that position.  (Did I mention that accurate sighting was an issue?)  The Air Corps angled the armored glass, which helped, and it's possible other users eventually did the same thing.  Oddly, the angled armored glass gave a skewed horizon line, and many US pilots soon found themselves flying with their left wing dropped slightly.  This was solved by painting a horizon line on the glass, and darkening everything beneath the line.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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6 hours ago, chuckb1 said:

I will just do it If I have time and enough printing credit with them

 

I will go down the teaching resources route. We are covering the War in the Far East and the rise of the Japanese Empire post the Boxer uprising for the students war and conflict units. Topical for them at it is 75 years since Pearl Harbour etc.

 

We start on Assignment 2 in January so will be then

 

If you can get a scan of that manual that would be outstanding!... thank you

Hume

Edited by HBBates

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Hi Dana, 

windscreen was it not in laminated glass as on P36/H75? not in perspex.
If the vertical refraction throught the glass bullet proof was around 3/4", the lateral offset has given a slight lateral diffraction.

these two refraction give this skewed horizon you said

 

BS_w

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The RAF Tomahawk I pilot's manual describes the windscreen as being three sections of laminated glass and behind the windscreen a section of 1.5" glass for protection from gunfire. Curtiss photographs of pre-packing cockpit modifications suggest the AVG Tomahawks were similar/identical. The three pieces of armour plate mentioned as being installed by the AVG are also mentioned in the IIA/IIB updated manual - 7mm thickness from lower windscreen to top of engine, a 7mm piece behind the pilot's seat and a 9mm piece behind the pilot's head. 

 

For those interested in the the detail of AVG Tomahawks I suggest obtaining Daniel Ford's "100 Hawks for China" which is/was available on Kindle and notes several non-standard features on the AVG aircraft with comments on the British pilot's manual and AVG differences by Erik Schilling as well as RAF serial number differences pertinent to cockpit details

 

Nick

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