P-47 color question

[Spitfires Forever]

While I make a final decision on my ASR Spitfire markings I decided to do a semi-quick build (that could be done by Christmas hopefully) of a P-47-28-RE flown during 1944 by Captain Boleslaw Gladych called "Pengie III". Supposedly the colors were British, a Sky type S bottom and a cammoflage of what might be MSG and OG, or perhaps dark green, not sure so that is why I am asking for information on this color scheme. I know there is a bit of controversy regarding the use of Britsh colors on some of the 8th Airforce Jugs. I have been looking at the Techmod decal set but have found that Techmod tends to be a bit off accuracy-wise, so thought I would check with my Britmodeller mates across the pond before coughing up the money for the decals.

Cheers

SA

[lampie]

Save your money

All the photos I have of this D-28 (Pengie 4) show no evidence of a 2 shade grey green topside/sky underside.

I've never seen a photo of it with noseart either, which is a shame as I'd love to see evidence that it was carried at some point.

Hope this helps,

Nige

www.56thfightergroup.co.uk

Edited June 26, 2013 by lampie

[TonyGol]

The photo I have shows nose art for "Pengie III" Will scan later.

[greatgonzo]

Of course You would. Yet Pengie III is a Razorback.

Listen to Nigel. The pictures do not exclude nose art, but they are just not showing the place. There is one picture of Mike's D-28 of poor quality (I have only seen reprints though) where You can suspect two colours of camouflage. Probably that was a reason for the idea. Pengie IV was Night Black over NMF most probably.

[PFlint]

I would think an upper/side color of RAF Dark Green would be acceptable for an aircraft flying during the daytime.

personally I would be suspect of aircraft painted black and flying in the daytime.

on some films and with poor photographer's skills Dark Green could look black.

[Jennings Heilig]

The bottom, bottom, bottom line is, nobody on earth knows what colors the 56th used. Unless some treasure trove of documentation surfaces someday (it probably never existed), we will never know. Did they use RAF paints? Well, maybe. But they were on a USAAF base, and part of the USAAF supply chain. Did they use locally procured paints? Possibly. There are documented cases of USAAF fighter groups procuring paint on the British market (the "apple green" noses of the 359th FG for example). Certainly British industry was producing paint during the war. Upshot of all this: paint your model whatever color you want.

[greatgonzo]

The one poor quality pic is just that - one. Other pics and background stories point in some direction. Certainty? For a single aircraft? Almost never happens.

[Stonar]

I would think an upper/side color of RAF Dark Green would be acceptable for an aircraft flying during the daytime.

personally I would be suspect of aircraft painted black and flying in the daytime.

on some films and with poor photographer's skills Dark Green could look black.

There were black P-47s flying in daylight in Europe. Nigel knows waaaay more about this than I do but he has previously posted/published some extracts from emails exchanged with Russ Kyler (who flew the darned things) and Russ is about as unequivocal as it is possible to be.

"The ORIGINAL 61st FS P-47Ms were painted "FLAT BLACK". In some photos (due to light refraction) they have a kind of "purplish" look to them. Roger Freeman lists them as being "Flat Black" as does the book titled "BEWARE THE THUNDERBOLT" by David R. McLaren. (Both are correct)."

"The different 61st color schemes that are floating around the web sites are of someone imagining WHAT the color was and making their own wild guesses."FLAT BLACK" is flat black. (Period). You can ask any artist & they will tell you that all colors take on a slightly different color under different lighting conditions; hence the wild differences that people dream up !!!!!"

Bold in the original.

I know he has evidence from others who were there at the time to support Russ' memory.

Cheers

Steve

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Hope it's OK to tack another 56th FG P-47M question onto this thread?

I've got the Revell 1/72 kit featuring markings for "Shoot!! You're Faded", 421140, UN-F, Cpt. Charles McBath & "Dottie Dee II", 421150, UN-M, Cpt. Walter L Flagg, both from the 63rd FS based at Boxted (all according to Revell).....The art work depicts both of them in a two colour blue-grey camo scheme over NMF, Revell suggest Blau 56 from their range for the darker colour and suggest mixing it 70/30 with white for the paler shade.

Does anybody know what colours these are supposed to be? Are they available out of the pot as acrylics from any other manufacturers (preferably from Tamiya)?

Final non-colour related question.....Would 2x1000lb bombs (plus a centre-line tank) be a plausible payload for these birds given they were flying from Blighty (or must I use puny 500lbers)? I'm planning to model both of these aircraft piloted, wheels up & mounted on stands, as a means of removing inconvenient Tiger tanks from the wargaming table.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Spitfires Forever]

My question is where did Techmod get their information? It seems that a lot of manufacturers are pulling stuff out of thin air when it comes to markings and colors. I have gone on to Pinterest at my wife's suggestion and have found WWII pictures that I have never seen before, pretty amazing I would say, but with most pictures being black and white they are pretty much useless for total authenticity. Anyway, if you haven't checked out Pinterest you should. As attractive as the color schemes seem to be for some of the TBolts, especially those of the 56th, I am very wary of the authenticity of the information. The color schemes for the P-47's in the 56th are as confusing as the Malta Spitfire color conundrum. I would say Jennings has the default system down, may as well paint them pink with purple polka dots, but that would create a psychotic episode for most of us. So, let's pretend the color schem is correct and just hope the IPMS inspector does not visit us to check on the authenticity of the color scheme.

Cheers

[andyf117]

Content withdrawn - I will NOT be threatened by a moderator, simply because I queried the actions of another...

Edited June 27, 2020 by andyf117

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Oh (F)FS.....Completely missed the FS numbers staring me in the face and concentrated on the Revell mixes.

So if I understand this correctly, basically this pair are at best, possibly painted in just about the two most contoversial colours in the known universe.....That's all I need!

Anyone have any ideas on the bombload?

Edited June 27, 2013 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Jennings Heilig]

My question is where did Techmod get their information? It seems that a lot of manufacturers are pulling stuff out of thin air when it comes to markings and colors.

Contrary to popular belief, decal artists do not have a magic well of "correct" information. Their guess (and that's all it is) is just as valid as yours. It's becoming increasingly rare to find previously undiscovered information about WWII allied aircraft colors & markings. It does happen (witness our recent discoveries about Johnny Plagis's Spitfire IX's), but it's not common.

[lampie]

Of course You would. Yet Pengie III is a Razorback.

Listen to Nigel. The pictures do not exclude nose art, but they are just not showing the place. There is one picture of Mike's D-28 of poor quality (I have only seen reprints though) where You can suspect two colours of camouflage. Probably that was a reason for the idea. Pengie IV was Night Black over NMF most probably.

I have a selection of hi res photos of Gladych's D-28 44-19718 (Pengie 4) which clearly show the port cowling area and theres no noseart visible. Unfortunately the exact dates they were taken is uncertain. Theres definately no suggestion of a two tone paint job on the upper surfaces.

Theres also a colour photo in which Gladych's P-47M (Pengie 5) is visible in the background and theres no noseart on the cowling in that photo either. ( not to say it wasn't added later though, just havent seen a photo of it yet).

The photo of Lanny, Gladych, Barnum and a couple of ground crew which is often quoted as being Gladych's black P-47M is in fact his D-28.

We can say this for certain despite the serial number not being visible because Eugene Barnum was KIA over a month before the first P-47M's began to arrive at Boxted. Rather a sad way to date a photo but when somebody in it was KIA or became a POW its a definate way of getting a cutoff point.

Also, the famous "yellow man" is different on the D-28 and the M. ( Pengie 4 and 5 respectively).

A couple of pieces of a 61st FS M survive here in UK, and I'm trying to get to see them for myself.

The only surviving aircraft which flew with the 61st FS is the Heinkel 111 at the RAF Museum Hendon, and this was painted in the same scheme as the 61st FS M's. If you get chance, have a crawl around that one day. Theres plenty of places where the black and red paint can be clearly seen.

63rdFS Blues are still anybodys guess at this point in time.

I have recently identified the microfilms which contain the 41st Service Squadron and 33rd Service Group records. Hopefully there will be some paperwork in there to give us a clue on this matter,(paint requisition orders) and I'm also on the trail of a couple of intriguingly labelled microfilms which may well contain new information of the 56th, but haven't had chance to view them yet.

Watch this space

Nige

http://56thfightergroup.co.uk/

[John @ WEM]

Oh (F)FS.....Completely missed the FS numbers staring me in the face and concentrated on the Revell mixes.

So if I understand this correctly, basically this pair are at best, possibly painted in just about the two most contoversial colours in the known universe.....That's all I need!

Anyone have any ideas on the bombload?

Just be aware that the FS system did not exist until the 1950s, so any FS reference to a WW2 paint colour is just someone's best guess at the closest FS match (according to that person's Mk.1 eyeball).

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Cheers John.....Didn't know about the origins of 'FS Colors', but did know of the approximate nature of call-outs for Azure and Dark Mediterranean Blue.

Reckon I'm gonna mix my own from my preferred Tamiyas.....I'm a believer in scale colour anyway, so I usually lighten OOTB paint anyway.

[Chuck1945]

...

Anyone have any ideas on the bombload?

The 56 flew some ground attack sorties as part of the lead-up to D-Day, but in general they were an escort group, not fighter bomber. Carrying bombs while escorting 8AF heavies would have been contra-indicated.

[andyf117]

Just be aware that the FS system did not exist until the 1950s, so any FS reference to a WW2 paint colour is just someone's best guess at the closest FS match (according to that person's Mk.1 eyeball).

Except for the ANA colours which were directly converted into the FS system, of course....

[Nick Millman]

Just be aware that the FS system did not exist until the 1950s, so any FS reference to a WW2 paint colour is just someone's best guess at the closest FS match (according to that person's Mk.1 eyeball).

Speak for yourself. I compare measured colour standard to measured colour standard (where available) and calculate the difference (and closeness) using the DE2000 criteria. All established colour science and neither "best guess" nor "Mk.1 eyeball"!!!

Nick

[Nick Millman]

Except for the ANA colours which were directly converted into the FS system, of course....

Except that they were not directly converted as such but rather incorporated with cross-referenced equivalents and superceded colors in the new standard. See ANA Bulletin 157d of 11th March 1959, for example, which lists FS 36440 Light Gull Grey as superceding ANA 620 whereas Seaplane Gray ANA 625 had no FS equivalent and was listed as "Color Standard to be Employed". There are no less than 12 ANA colours to be used with no FS equivalent or superceded colour in this listing and one cancelled colour (Olive Green).

There were also pigment composition changes which resulted in differences in appearance.

Nick

[Jennings Heilig]

Speak for yourself. I compare measured colour standard to measured colour standard (where available) and calculate the difference (and closeness) using the DE2000 criteria. All established colour science and neither "best guess" nor "Mk.1 eyeball"!!!

Nick

You're making the rash assumption that color "standards" are in fact standard, and that color sample cards from 70 years ago are still the same color they were 70 years ago. Neither is a good assumption to make in every case. Sometimes you just have to use the old Mk.I eyeball computer. When you get down to the very bottom, bottom line, the fact is we're making an artistic interpretation of the way an airplane looked 70 years ago, so we have to account for the small size of our replica as well as other factors. I can give you any number of examples of where decals were printed down to the n'th degree of "accuracy" in terms of color fidelity, yet they look awful (at best) on the model, or (worst case) are completely useless because they have to match a camouflage color. If you matched your camo to the color of the decal (no matter how "accurate"), your model looks like the Black Hole of Calcutta. Like it or not, scale color effect exists.

[Nick Millman]

You're making the rash assumption that color "standards" are in fact standard, and that color sample cards from 70 years ago are still the same color they were 70 years ago. Neither is a good assumption to make in every case. Sometimes you just have to use the old Mk.I eyeball computer. When you get down to the very bottom, bottom line, the fact is we're making an artistic interpretation of the way an airplane looked 70 years ago, so we have to account for the small size of our replica as well as other factors. I can give you any number of examples of where decals were printed down to the n'th degree of "accuracy" in terms of color fidelity, yet they look awful (at best) on the model, or (worst case) are completely useless because they have to match a camouflage color. If you matched your camo to the color of the decal (no matter how "accurate"), your model looks like the Black Hole of Calcutta. Like it or not, scale color effect exists.

I am making no assumptions about anything, rash or otherwise, merely explaining that the methodology I use to compare colour standards is neither "best guess" nor "Mk 1 eyeball". I agree that model aircraft are by their very nature an interpretation but the study of paint standards, paint colour and model aircraft are not mutually inclusive. It is just too easy to replace objective science with subjective opinion by stating an unquantifiable unknown, e.g. sample cards have changed colour over 70 years. Your Mk 1 eyeball also does not overcome the age related factors you cite so all in all I prefer science to your Mk 1 eyeball. Besides there must be some basis for communicating historical colour with an element of precision otherwise hobby paint ranges would be much smaller with just 'blue', 'green', etc., and many of these threads would not exist.

Also, when it comes to ANA and FS I cross reference to authoritative historical colour references like Whistler (1969 = 26 years) and Smith (1972 = 29 years) so not 70 years after all. I also investigate pigments which are the best key to colour, then and now.

I made no comment at all about scale colour effect! Accepting its existence and implementing it convincingly are two very different things anyway.

Nick

[Nick Millman]

While I'm at it I might as well address this statement as well:-

"FLAT BLACK" is flat black. (Period)."

Actually it is not, always. One of the most common black pigments - carbon black - comes with neutral, blue or brown undertones. Another - lamp black - is generally reported to have a predominantly brown undertone nowadays, although during the war the Ministry of Supply recorded* that "the blue undertone of lampblack and Shell carbon are particularly valuable" - they may have been using the term colloquially. Most carbon black and Shell carbon was imported from the USA on a restricted lend-lease basis and lampblack, bone black and vegetable blacks were all in short supply. Nevertheless the British made much use of vegetable black usually for tinting with other pigments. One of the few true pure blacks is manganese ferrite black which exhibits virtually no colour and is a pure jet black. Even today the Federal Standard specifies blue shade carbon black and lamp black (brown) in its pigment mixes.

During WWII Britain the USA and Germany went to some lengths to develop pure black paints with variable success. Carbon black is a pigment with a very small particle size of 0.01- 0.1 micrometres (µm). Generally the smaller the particle size the better the colour obtained and carbon black is recognised as giving a superior black colour, especially in mixture. However the large surface area required can cause problems with dispersion of the pigment leading to poor gloss and poor colour. It is also difficult to make stable paints with carbon black in air-drying media and when used with other pigments it can flocculate causing colour shift during storage. Even before post-application changes from various factors. With the not-inconsiderable caveat of not knowing which actual paint was used on those P-47's, given the time and circumstances I would be surprised if it was a pure jet black even though some might have perceived it that way.

Since strictly speaking black is not a colour anyway the reflectance of colour from a black painted surface usually evidences other factors in its composition (or in the photo film) such as those described above and is not necessarily just the result of illuminant metamerism. Observer metameric failure also means that not everyone will see the "same" black. The proportion of long-wavelength-sensitive cones to medium-wavelength-sensitive cones in the retina, the profile of light sensitivity in each type of cone, and the amount of yellowing in the lens and macular pigment of the eye differs from one person to the next. This alters the relative importance of different wavelengths in a spectral power distribution to each observer's colour perception.

Nick

* Documentation courtesy of Edgar

[stevehnz]

Since strictly speaking black is not a colour anyway the reflectance of colour from a black painted surface usually evidences other factors in its composition (or in the photo film) such as those described above and is not necessarily just the result of illuminant metamerism. Observer metameric failure also means that not everyone will see the "same" black. The proportion of long-wavelength-sensitive cones to medium-wavelength-sensitive cones in the retina, the profile of light sensitivity in each type of cone, and the amount of yellowing in the lens and macular pigment of the eye differs from one person to the next. This alters the relative importance of different wavelengths in a spectral power distribution to each observer's colour perception.

Nick

* Documentation courtesy of Edgar

Thanks Nick, I find this last paragraph particualrly useful in understanding why indivduals see things differently & why all Mk I eyeballs aren't created equal;). I quite enjoyed finding out about blacks too. Not especially germaine to this discussion but I've always associated the dark colour of tyres with the addition of carbon to the mix for toughness & wearabilty & have long puzzled why Luftwaffe tyres are portrayed as various shades of (often quite pale) grey. I'd have though carbon black would not have been in short supply, at least not compared to other pigments but maybe we're talking a different carbon here:unsure:

Steve.

[Spitfires Forever]

I had read that black has two base colors, either blue or brown? Nick would know for sure. Getting back to my color questions, Were there ever any P-47's that were painted in RAF Dark Green and Sky type S? There is some controversy about aircraft from Duxford being painted in these colors. Some say the colors were RAF DG with MSG bottoms, some say they were all U. S. ANA OD and medium grey. Is there any definitive answer to that question, or are we getting into the ever present grey area (I prefer Black Hole) that is the role of WWII aircraft paint schemes. I like the combination of the RAF colors, a nice change from the boring AAF colors, but it would be quite irritating to know three of my P-47's are painted in tha absolute wrong paint scheme. We know pretty much for certain that the RAF B-25's were never painted in RAF DG and Sky type S, but where the American T-Bolt is concerned there is no conclusive information that I have read any way, that the colors were RAF DG and Sky type S for some of the 82nd and 78th p-47's yet I see models painted in those colors. Any real documentation for the application of these colors.

Cheers