Kari Lumppio

Thank You! BraZ antennas do look a bit more angular than "Norski" ones, at least in the picture. I will look for the 16515 (Lifecolor or compare with Hu 147). I guess Lima November instructions are more than shown on their homesite then? It shows only side views and decal sheets. Cheers, Kari

Hello! Being complete novice for modern (or any kind of) airliner modelling I have couple of questions of Norwegian 737-800s: What red hobby paint to use? I plan to get Lima November decals so match to their red is requested. Are wings all grey (save leading edge) like Zvezda gives in their instructions? I have sat quite a many times in Norwegian 737-800 behind the wing window seat but have to confess I cannot say for certain if flaps were grey or natural metal. What grey is good for the wing? Colour for the flap track fairings? Is there any aftermarket resin parts for the satellite Wi-Fi antenas Norwegian AS uses? Or can anyone give dimensions etc.? Any other tips modelling Norwegian 737-800 are welcomed. Cheers, Kari

Hello! I have understood that clad aluminum parts did not need corrosion inhibiting primer (zinc chromate). But non-clad aka bare aluminium parts did need corrosion inhibiting primer (zinc chromate). Even after moving on with "natural metal" schemes. Depending of the structural member (frame, stringer, skin sheet) B-17 part could be clad or non-clad. And needing chromater primer or not. Cladding means adding thin pure (99%) aluminium layer on aluminum alloy (usuall copper alloy - dural) on outer surfaces. Most likely method was roll bonding (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cladding_(metalworking ) for sheets. Stringers could be made with pressing from sheet metal pieces (which could be cladded) or from extrusions (cladding not possible and so needed primer). BTW Today stringent environmental rules prohibit use of hexavalent chromates including zinc chromates. One of methods intended as replacement is spraying pure aluminum on (for example) milled frames, ribs, whatever. Sort of 3D cladding, that is. Hope this helps more than muds things up. Cheers, Kari

Hei Nils, Kjetil and others! Would that two greens upon grey go also for the Norwegian Gladiator 433? I have seen green and brown suggested. Cheers, Kari

Hello! Sorry Rob, cannot help with the Riga Yak. I can ask a friend living there if you do not get answer. Let me know. You and ohters may be interested that there is another Yak-28 museum piece in the neighboroughing country Estonia. Tartu lennundusmuuseum (http://www.lennundusmuuseum.ee/ , choose language from upper right corner) has Yak-28PP under restoration. Short introduction of the aircraft here (http://www.lennundusmuuseum.ee/pildigalerii/havitus-rundelennukid/jak-28pp/ I. As far as I know, the Yak-28PP "52" actually served at Pärnu. 655 IAP flew MiG-23s there, and some internet sources say the unit flew Yak-28 until 70's. Cannot verify, though. When I saw the Yak-28 hulk first time at the Tartu museum it was some dirty pieces where weather had washed all camo paint away. IIRC no paint was left, but some remains which could have been dirt or grass, too. If anyone can add any data or photos of these 655(?) IAP Yak-28 at least I would be interested. Happy New Year! Kari

Hello! Of the expertise. When I see "mhaselden" writing something about Brewster Buffaloes I stop glimpsing and start reading. The posting which followed (see above) was in my opinion completely unnecessary. More so because Mark started with words - I quote - "No such thing as "consensus" I'm afraid". Of the Buffalo undercarriage leg colours. Finnish Air Force saw the need to paint Brewster undercarrieage leg upper sides with camouflage colours black (retraction struts, usually) and green (main leg). Originally they were painted with aluminium dope over chromate primer as was US Navy standard then. Dark Earth and Dark Green would be perfectly natural choice for RAF Buffaloes. For me there is no worms in can. Merry Christmas! Kari

Of the use of word "bulge" in this context, please see: NACA Technical note 5: Relation of rib spacing to stress in wing planes https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19930080799.pdf It should help you somewhat in modelling in-flight fabric covered wing surfaces. Cheers, Kari

Hallo! NACA Technical Note 428 "Charactersistics of an airfoil as affected by fabric sag" http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1932/naca-tn-428.pdf Figure 2 is one of the best if not the best numerical description of the "sagging" phenomenon. Taut fabric covering between curved ris/frames will always have visible "sag". The maximum "sag" coincides with the largest frame/rib curvature point (i.e. the smallest radius point). This is simple result of the Newtons III law. Take example of fabric covering on upper side of a wing rib span. At the center, between ribs, leading and trailing edges of fabric do have downward line force compontent. Fabric covering creates the opposite and equal magnitude reaction force by "sagging". Then the left and right side edges do have upwards component (in line forces toward ribs) making the sum of forces zero. The fabric covering centerline is inside (below in this case) the rib curvature even in perfectly taut surface! If the curvature is zero - or in other words it is flat surface - there is no fabric "sagging" whatsoever on the covering. Majority of control surfaces fall in this category. In engineering sense, that is. In-flight photos of fabric covered airplanes are suitable references only for in-flight models what comes to the "sagging" or (rather bulging or ballooning). I am of the opinion that fabric covering shall have only elastic stretch when ballooning in-flight. If there is plastic deformation i.e. the fabric really is sagging, it is no more airworthy. Cheers, Kari

Hello! FinnAF Hawk wings. Mk 51 (HW-301-350) did have the triangular stall strip on leading edge. Mk 51A (HW-351-357) did/do have the three small wing fences - "new wing" Mk 66 (HW-360-377) do have the three small wiing fences - "new wing" A handful of old Mk 51 have been rewinged and the new wing has three small fences. I think these were all repairs after accidents, not planned upgrades as such. Fin, rudder, horizontal tails and fuselage have separate maintenance cycles and few years back it was common to see green Hawks with grey pieces and grey Hawks with green pieces. And now red/white Hawk with grey fin. I don't remember ever seeing wing and fuselage with different colours, though. Of the old FinnAF Hawks HW-346 and -347 were painted with Sikkens paints and the greens differed clearly from the "normal" ones (see "normal colour" BS codes in post by user scotthldr above). Later, when the camouflage pattern and markings were made to more low-visible, as result of overpainting with normal shades the two Hawks had sort of four colour upper camouflage. IIRC one of them received grey fin or something as a cherry to the cake, too. Today all flying FinnAF Hawk are with glass cockpits (Mk 51As and Mk 66s and one Mk 51 prototype). Updated by Patria in Finland. Seven old Mk 51 will be (or are already?) upgraded, too, though this was not originally planned. These are to make up the flying hous lost in the collision of two Mk 66s in 2013. Cheers, Kari

Hello! For what it is worth Last week was held the largest peace time excercises for Finnish Air Force - "Ruska 2016". I was not with the Hawks, but there is nice YouTube video of Hawk being refuelled. Taken during the excercise. The video includes HW-374 in Swiss type red/white colours, but with grey fin! News to me, too. Hawks did have (seemingly) captive Sidewinders on left pylons. The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SNQDvYvwzQ Just to show that FinnAF Hawk can be/have been "green", "grey" "red&white" or even mix of them. Though I think "green" parts are no more. Nor has there been "green" parts during the time the redwhites (ex Swiss Mk 66) have been in use. One needs period photos if colour accuracy is goal for FinnAF Hawk model. Cheers, Kari

Hello! Just a morning musing. Could it be that the diagonal stripes go over the whole plane top view? So that seen from above the stripes create "V"s, but to the flight direction? I mean the Me 262 on photo where the cyclist leans on the cowling. And the contrasting colour (a dark green?) might have been chosen purposedly as the camo would be marking at the same time (Kommander winkels)? Venturesome modeller might paint black stripes on green, taking the thought much (too much?) further. Please do not take this too seriously. Cheers, Kari

Hello! Of the "14". It is within realities that there is frost/snow on the airplane wing. Just an personal remark. Was my flapper gasted when I googled about another Soviet Hurricane with three search words including "Hurricane", "Röhö" and my last name. Seems I have initialized thread here at Britmodeller and have totally forgotten that!: Hurricane IIA Z2585 , Soviet "42" http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/50604-hurricane-iia-z2585-soviet-42 One of the linked photos even shows my beloved Nokia 3310 phone (still working - badly - but not in use). The Röhö Hurricane I searched for is mentioned in this thread: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234939009-finnish-hurricane-pictures/ It is terryfying to notice how much I have forgotten about these "Karelian" Hurricanes... For example it was late Edgar who made me think about the mixed grey possibility. God bless soul of that good man. In the "42" thread I have cut a rectangle from the "light" grey area and pasted under the canopy. Compared like that there is not much difference! See yourselves. Cheers, Kari

Hello! Hurricane "42" was not shot down. It made emergency landing mid February 1942 on Tuoppajärvi lake. "42"/Z2585 was not new plane. It flew with 316 sqn RAF. A friend was able to provide 316 sqn ORB copies and IIRC Z2585 was off operations for few days soon after the DFS order August 1941 and that would fit for repaint. IIRC also last flight with 316 was in September 1941 or so. It is several years since I last looked into this topic and cannot remember where I have the files. Hopefully not among lost e-mails. As I wrote it seems in Karelian area late 1941 - early 1942 VVS Hurricane units did not always paint the Soviet Stars on, even. Then I suppose the canouflage was left untouched, too. This is behind my reasoning that camouflage colours are British. Progress to Summer and later 1942, Soviet weapon modifications and so on, situation certainly changed. Hurricane "14" is said to be from a Karelian area VVS unit. Soldiers in the "14" photos wear fur hats. Those are not for the Summer. Added to fact that "14" still has original weapons I believe the photos are from early 1942. In late April-early May that year heavy fighting was going on Kiestinki (Kestenga) area. Soviet were in the offensive and propagada photos like these were neeeded. Snow was then alredy thawing if not melting but it still was relatively cold. BTW Hurricanes were used then for ground target strafing, what I have read from Finnish Infantry war diaries. Cheers, Kari

Ciao! My guess for the "white 14" and "white 42" of those above is following: Camouflage colours are all RAF - original camo "mixed grey" and Dark Green - MU or somesuch has overpainted all RAF markings with proper Ocean Grey (lighter than mixed grey) and Dark Green before sending to Soviet Union Soviets painted only markings: stars and tactical number I am interested to hear all pro and contra facts to above statement. Late 1941 (December) over Finnish front was reported several times Hurricanes with RAF markings. RAF units did not fly at these areas. My undertanding is that early 1942 Soviets were so short of everything that even proper markings were not seen compulsory. Autumn 1941 Hurricane deliveries to SU were done apparently hastily. In some memories mention Soviets were angered to find Hurricane from crate with (Finnish?) swastika insignias. During Winter War more Hurricanes were readied to be sent to Finland, but it did not materialize. At least the "42" was crash landed early 1942 (February?). I am separated from my books several hundred kilometers so cannot check right now. Cheers, Kari PS Just remembered that FinnAF Morane pilots reported seeing at least one Hurricane with silver outer wing panels. IIRC this was also early 1942? At least it was period with snow cover. By 1943 Hurricane was becoming a rarity already.

Hello! Wait a minute. BW-381 armour seat cushion was also repaired when at VL July-October 1941 ("Korjattu: Panssari-istuimen verhous..."). In the photo the cushion probably still is at shop? I hope this info is not a fly in ointment. Cheers, Kari