Curtiss Mohawk I, II & III in CVommonwealth Service

[Lazy Builder]

Does anyone have any photo references for Curtiss Mohawk I, II or IIIs in Commonwealth service. Although the RAF, SAAF and IAF (I think) had early Mohawks I have only found one photo of one. This was titled Mohawk III 'P' of 10 Sqn SAAF at Durban in early 1942. The photo is of the pilot and the detail of the aircraft is unclear. After the fall of France the RAF inherited over 200 Mohawks of various types I would appreciate any guidance on these early model aircraft.

[Jon Kunac-Tabinor]

Hiya - you might want to get hold of the Osprey book on P36 Aces. It has a pretty good section on the RAF, SAAF and other empire airforces use of the Mohawk, plus you get the French and Finnish AF use thrown in too.

Its not expensive , and will be a damn good read too. I know, I have it

HH

Jonners

[Nick Millman]

I have a pdf on the subject of the early Mohawks in RAF service, including photos which I'm still researching so it's a work in progress. Drop me a message with your email and I'll send you a copy.

[Nick Millman]

I would be very interested in this also Nick! PM sent

Sent!

[Ley]

I have a pdf on the subject of the early Mohawks in RAF service, including photos which I'm still researching so it's a work in progress. Drop me a message with your email and I'll send you a copy.

I would also be interested in this info'. My email is [email protected]. TIA.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Ley

[Lazy Builder]

I have a pdf on the subject of the early Mohawks in RAF service, including photos which I'm still researching so it's a work in progress. Drop me a message with your email and I'll send you a copy.

Nick,

Would be grateful to see your info - my e-mail is [email protected].

Regards

Ian

[Colin S-K]

I have a pdf on the subject of the early Mohawks in RAF service, including photos which I'm still researching so it's a work in progress. Drop me a message with your email and I'll send you a copy.

Nick,

Also interested.....

[email protected]

Colin

[Max Headroom]

I've just dug out Air Enthusiast 23 - it's the one with the Chino Zero on the cover. It has an article "The RAF's Little Indians" a nine page article including a cutaway, of RAF use from initial acquisition but concentrating on use in the Indian theatre. Some nice shots of 5 Sqn machines, BB975 OQ-X is the only one with a full code/serial tie-up. If anyone wants a copy PM me.

I also recall Brian Derbyshire doing an in-depth rundown in an IPMS magazine 10+ years ago (no idea where I put it). As far as I recall he concentrated on the Wright Cyclone engined variants, which is what the RAF and Commonwealth had most of anyway.

MH

Edited April 4, 2010 by Max Headroom

[Nick Millman]

I've just dug out Air Enthusiast 23 - it's the one with the Chino Zero on the cover. It has an article "The RAF's Little Indians" a nine page article including a cutaway, of RAF use from initial acquisition but concentrating on use in the Indian theatre. Some nice shots of 5 Sqn machines, BB975 OQ-X is the only one with a full code/serial tie-up. If anyone wants a copy PM me.

I also recall Brian Derbyshire doing an in-depth rundown in an IPMS magazine 10+ years ago (no idea where I put it). As far as I recall he concentrated on the Wright Cyclone engined variants, which is what the RAF and Commonwealth had most of anyway.

MH

It is a good article indeed but by no means definitive. Other equally essential references for serious Mohawk enthusiasts are "Mohawks Over Burma" by Gerry Beauchamp (Midland Counties, 1985 ISBN 0-904597-58-X) and "Curtiss Hawk 75" by Gerry Beauchamp and Jean Cuny (ViP Publishers, 1996, ISBN 0-934575-13-4)), both containing much primary source material, colour and markings discussion, profiles and service histories. Appendix E of the former lists serials and ID letter combinations where known and is well worth searching for (Abe currently lists 11 - but not cheap!).

Stills from RAF Mohawk colour film

. Watch carefully as the aircraft passes the camera in the final frames and you will see that the Sky fuselage band has been overpainted on the upper surfaces only, suggesting that the undersurfaces may still be in their delivery finish - not overpainted. You can just see it below and behind the code letter in the still shown here. Also visible (in the film) are the yellow outboard leading edges and wingtips to provide IFF from Japanese Oscars. How that wingtip misses the tree is quite something.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Nick Millman

[Lazy Builder]

It is a good article indeed but by no means definitive. Other equally essential references for serious Mohawk enthusiasts are "Mohawks Over Burma" by Gerry Beauchamp (Midland Counties, 1985 ISBN 0-904597-58-X) and "Curtiss Hawk 75" by Gerry Beauchamp and Jean Cuny (ViP Publishers, 1996, ISBN 0-934575-13-4)), both containing much primary source material, colour and markings discussion, profiles and service histories. Appendix E of the former lists serials and ID letter combinations where known and is well worth searching for (Abe currently lists 11 - but not cheap!).

Stills from RAF Mohawk colour film

. Watch carefully as the aircraft passes the camera in the final frames and you will see that the Sky fuselage band has been overpainted on the upper surfaces only, suggesting that the undersurfaces may still be in their delivery finish - not overpainted. You can just see it below and behind the code letter in the still shown here. Also visible (in the film) are the yellow outboard leading edges and wingtips to provide IFF from Japanese Oscars. How that wingtip misses the tree is quite something.

Nick,

Thanks for the lead, sadly the Mohawk in the film is a MkIV - i.e. no cowling bulges for the 2 x 303s above the cowling. As you say it's an amazing bit of film and gives some good ideas for diorama building. I'll try and track done those books you mention.

Best wishes

Ian

[Nick Millman]

I would also be interested in this info'. My email is [email protected]. TIA.

Hi Ley

When I tried to send it that email address came up as invalid. Could you confirm it please? Thanks.

Regards

Nick

[Terry McGrady]

Nick,

Thanks for the lead, sadly the Mohawk in the film is a MkIV - i.e. no cowling bulges for the 2 x 303s above the cowling. As you say it's an amazing bit of film and gives some good ideas for diorama building. I'll try and track done those books you mention.

Best wishes

Ian

Hi Ian , I have seen a photo somewhere of a Mohawk MKIII AR633 RG*E of 510 SQ

Appeared to be from recollection In Day Fighter Scheme with red codes

Cheers

Terry McGrady

Edited April 4, 2010 by Terry McGrady

[Lazy Builder]

Hi Ian , I have seen a photo somewhere of a Mohawk MKIII AR633 RG*E of 510 SQ

Appeared to be from recollection In Day Fighter Scheme with red codes

Cheers

Terry McGrady

Terry,

That is useful - do you know where 510 were based at the time?

Cheers

Ian

[stevehnz]

It is a good article indeed but by no means definitive. Other equally essential references for serious Mohawk enthusiasts are "Mohawks Over Burma" by Gerry Beauchamp (Midland Counties, 1985 ISBN 0-904597-58-X) and "Curtiss Hawk 75" by Gerry Beauchamp and Jean Cuny (ViP Publishers, 1996, ISBN 0-934575-13-4)), both containing much primary source material, colour and markings discussion, profiles and service histories. Appendix E of the former lists serials and ID letter combinations where known and is well worth searching for (Abe currently lists 11 - but not cheap!).

Stills from RAF Mohawk colour film

. Watch carefully as the aircraft passes the camera in the final frames and you will see that the Sky fuselage band has been overpainted on the upper surfaces only, suggesting that the undersurfaces may still be in their delivery finish - not overpainted. You can just see it below and behind the code letter in the still shown here. Also visible (in the film) are the yellow outboard leading edges and wingtips to provide IFF from Japanese Oscars. How that wingtip misses the tree is quite something.

Just being watching this again, didn't pay much attention to the earlier bit the first couple of times, too busy watching (& admiring) how the pilot taxied thru those trees with that huge radial out in front. Impressive. In the early part, it seems like a couple of ground crew are winding something up. Did these have inertia starters or such like, I'm picking these were Cyclones in these planes?

Steve

[Terry McGrady]

Terry,

That is useful - do you know where 510 were based at the time?

Cheers

Ian

I'll have to look it up but it was a communications Squadron I believe

Cheers

Terry

[Terry McGrady]

Just being watching this again, didn't pay much attention to the earlier bit the first couple of times, too busy watching (& admiring) how the pilot taxied thru those trees with that huge radial out in front. Impressive. In the early part, it seems like a couple of ground crew are winding something up. Did these have inertia starters or such like, I'm picking these were Cyclones in these planes?

Steve

Yes they were Cyclones caused no end of problems so I understand . In fact Finns re-engened their Cyclone P36 so Im given to understand

Cheers

Terry

[stevehnz]

Yes they were Cyclones caused no end of problems so I understand . In fact Finns re-engened their Cyclone P36 so Im given to understand

Cheers

Terry

I wonder if they were like the cyclones in the Buffalos supplied to the Commonwealth squadrons in Singapore, reputedly reconditioned, but in fact worn out & clapped out. If they did that to the Finns they would need to have repowered them.

Steve.

[Nick Millman]

Terry,

That is useful - do you know where 510 were based at the time?

Cheers

Ian

Did you not receive the pdf I sent you? It includes a photograph of this aircraft and further details.

I sent out all the pdfs to those who had requested them at the weekend but so far have received only one acknowledgement from Colin! Maybe they were not received?

[Terry McGrady]

I wonder if they were like the cyclones in the Buffalos supplied to the Commonwealth squadrons in Singapore, reputedly reconditioned, but in fact worn out & clapped out. If they did that to the Finns they would need to have repowered them.

Steve.

Hi Steve,

No think they would have been new since they were built by Curtiss -Wright. How well is another question.

Cheers

Terry

[Test Graham]

The Finns had ex-USN aircraft with military-spec engines. Many export Cyclones were indeed civil engines, often recycled. It is interesting to read the recent work on Dutch Buffaloes, it gives some idea of the kind of horse-trading going on.

[Nick Millman]

The saga of the Cyclone engines is just that - a saga - and too complex to wrap up in a few soundbites. There is a whole series of French engine and flight test data relating to the to and fro of both these and the twin Wasps with various engine reps and modifications throughout the story. However, some insight is provided by Wg/Cdr R B Watt (RCAF rtd) who during part of the war was a Flt Sgt attached to the RAF at Takoradi as an Allison engine expert:-

"The batch of Cyclones installed in the Curtiss' and, to some extent, in the Brewster Buffaloes and the Lockheed Hudsons, were affected by the failure of the oil slinger ring. The ring originally installed on these specific engines was of inferior material, made of a soft metal alloy. These were replaced by rings with double the number of oil holes, which cured the engine seizure problem. The ring was fitted to the main crankshaft bearing and its purpose was to splash oil inside the cylinders to provide adequate cooling and oiling to the bottom of the cylinders and proper lubrication to the connecting rod bearings and pistons. Cyclone-powered Hudsons were reported to operate without oil problem difficulties.

All the faulty engines had been withdrawn from service before February 1941. The modified steel rings became available thereafter, but there were no maintenance manuals available at Takoradi to detail the replacement procedure and overhaul of the engines."

There are also many anecdotal stories regarding the French "reverse operating" throttles on many of the Mohawks delivered from the ex-French contracts. These were reported to be the cause of the loss of AR673 on 27th December 1940, one of the first Mohawks assembled and tested at Takoradi for the SAAF. The first batch of Mohawk aircraft were grounded for the throttles to be modified but since there were no tools or parts available at Takoradi the Mohawks had to be sent back to the UK for modification, causing a significant delay in their introduction to service.

Accident reports also reveal that the Mohawks as delivered were not equipped with Sutton harnesses but only lap straps and these were also the subject of further modification to bring them up to RAF service configuration.

[Max Headroom]

The Finns had ex-USN aircraft with military-spec engines. Many export Cyclones were indeed civil engines, often recycled. It is interesting to read the recent work on Dutch Buffaloes, it gives some idea of the kind of horse-trading going on.

I thought the Finnish aircraft were ex French examples captured and reconditioned by the Germans? I believe they also re-engined their Cylcone examples with Twin Wasps.

MH

[Dave Fleming]

I sent out all the pdfs to those who had requested them at the weekend but so far have received only one acknowledgement from Colin! Maybe they were not received?

Sent you an email, but just in case - Thanks, most interesting!!

[Lazy Builder]

The saga of the Cyclone engines is just that - a saga - and too complex to wrap up in a few soundbites. There is a whole series of French engine and flight test data relating to the to and fro of both these and the twin Wasps with various engine reps and modifications throughout the story. However, some insight is provided by Wg/Cdr R B Watt (RCAF rtd) who during part of the war was a Flt Sgt attached to the RAF at Takoradi as an Allison engine expert:-

"The batch of Cyclones installed in the Curtiss' and, to some extent, in the Brewster Buffaloes and the Lockheed Hudsons, were affected by the failure of the oil slinger ring. The ring originally installed on these specific engines was of inferior material, made of a soft metal alloy. These were replaced by rings with double the number of oil holes, which cured the engine seizure problem. The ring was fitted to the main crankshaft bearing and its purpose was to splash oil inside the cylinders to provide adequate cooling and oiling to the bottom of the cylinders and proper lubrication to the connecting rod bearings and pistons. Cyclone-powered Hudsons were reported to operate without oil problem difficulties.

All the faulty engines had been withdrawn from service before February 1941. The modified steel rings became available thereafter, but there were no maintenance manuals available at Takoradi to detail the replacement procedure and overhaul of the engines."

There are also many anecdotal stories regarding the French "reverse operating" throttles on many of the Mohawks delivered from the ex-French contracts. These were reported to be the cause of the loss of AR673 on 27th December 1940, one of the first Mohawks assembled and tested at Takoradi for the SAAF. The first batch of Mohawk aircraft were grounded for the throttles to be modified but since there were no tools or parts available at Takoradi the Mohawks had to be sent back to the UK for modification, causing a significant delay in their introduction to service.

Accident reports also reveal that the Mohawks as delivered were not equipped with Sutton harnesses but only lap straps and these were also the subject of further modification to bring them up to RAF service configuration.

[Lazy Builder]

Nick,

I have sent an e-mail reply for your PDF. Another question please. From my journey through the internet it seems that the early P-36s were more reliable than the Cyclone powered versions. Were the aircraft taken into US service generally better built and maintained being on US soil rather than in the more hostile environments such as South Africa and India?

Ian