Experimental Marineflieger Tornado colours.

[stevehnz]

It was my intention to do this for the current Italeri GB but but a surgery appointment got in the way of that & I never did get going, otherwise I'd have been asking this some time ago. The kit with the colour scheme I want to do is this one, the scheme being the boxart scheme. My only other reference is a profile

 

 

posted 3 years ago by @JayBeewhich has a ring of authority to it. My problem is, finding equivalent colours to RAL 7012, 7023 & 7030, preferably in something like Humbrol (yeah right!) or Vallejo, either Model Colour or Modelair, both of which I can source easily & if I can get a good match, I can use in my build when I get around to it. The other problem is does this use one of the standard marineflieger camo patterns with the experimental colours substituted? Hopefully Jurgen doesn't mind me putting his profile up here.  I can link to the original post if that is a problem.

Steve.

[Casey]

42 minutes ago, stevehnz said:

finding equivalent colours to RAL 7012, 7023 & 7030, preferably in something like Humbrol (yeah right!) or Vallejo,

RAL 7012:

        Humbrol: DE00: 0.84 - DB0106 | No 106 | Ocean Grey - Matt | GU 4.4

        Vallejo Air: DE00: 1.26 - 71.049 | Sea Grey | Gris Mar | GU 3.2

 

RAL 7023:

        Humbrol: Nothing <3.0 DE

        Vallejo Air: DE00: 2.64 - 71.045 | Cement Grey | Gris Cemento | RAL7033 | GU 2.8

 

RAL 7030:

        Humbrol: Nothing <3.0 DE

        Vallejo Air: DE00: 2.76 - 71.312 | IJN Medium Grey | IJN Gris Medio | GU 2.2

 

RAL 9005:

        Humbrol: DE00: 0.82 - DB0033 | No 33 | Black - Matt | GU 3.9
        Vallejo Air:DE00: 0.56 - 71.057 | Black | Negro | FS37038 | RAL9004 | RLM22 | ANA604 | BS642 | GU 1.3

[stevehnz]

Brilliant, thanks @Casey, if I was aware you'd done matches to RAL I'd forgotten, so these will be a huge help. Was the RAL equivalencies given a thread or no?

Thanks again,

Steve.

[JayBee]

No problem Steve. 

[JayBee]

Oh and it is the Norm 83B pattern.

[Steve McArthur]

Hataka makes the RAL colours in acrylics (Red Line) or lacquers (Orange Line).  You can use Scalemates to search for paints for a given color https://www.scalemates.com/search.php?fkSECTION[]=Paints&q=RAL+7012

 

7012 - HTK-C192

7023 - HTK-C149

7030 - HTK-C233

 

[stevehnz]

Thanks Steve, appreciate the info. Hataka not so easy to come by here, especially the blue line for us recidivist brush painting types but I'll keep these as a back up. I do really appreciate the Don color diagrams, these were pure gold to my mind & I've grieved for them since they disappeared. This should simplify the job of camo demarcations.

 

 

Steve 

[Steve McArthur]

9 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Thanks Steve, appreciate the info. Hataka not so easy to come by here, especially the blue line for us recidivist brush painting types but I'll keep these as a back up. I do really appreciate the Don color diagrams, these were pure gold to my mind & I've grieved for them since they disappeared. This should simplify the job of camo demarcations.

 

I got the Don Color profile from the web archive athttps://web.archive.org/web/20090803132230fw_/http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/main_e.htmI hadn't looked for them since they disappeared until @JayBee link to one of them.  Now I've archived the jets locally.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Steve McArthur

[stevehnz]

4 hours ago, Steve McArthur said:

 

I got the Don Color profile from the web archive athttps://web.archive.org/web/20090803132230fw_/http://www.jpsmodell.de/dc/main_e.htmI hadn't looked for them since they disappeared until @JayBee link to one of them.  Now I've archived the jets locally.

I've had a bit of a prowl in the web.archive & it would appear a fair bit of the Don Color web site is saved there, really good to know. Thanks to you & @JayBee fort making my day in this way.

Steve.

[Des]

Don't know what Revell paint availability is in NZ but pre-pandemic I was planning a three model Marinefleiger 'Ost Express' Baltic Recce project of which only the RF-104G (Basaltgrau over Silbergrau) got finished and the TSR2 'Seeadler' (overall Basaltgrau as per overall EDSG RN Buccaneers) partly done but on checking my notes here are the conclusions I came to for what would have been the Tornado IDS had it got started so no idea if it would have worked out.

 

My notes refer to paint name rather than RAL number and after so long I cannot recall if the two were checked against each other so quite possibly the shades might be off so please don't shoot the messenger , the Revell paints are described by their current Enamel/Acrylic number but for Basaltgrau Revell 32177/36177 , Grungrau Revell 32167/36167 , and for Graublau the discontinued Revell enamel 351 or Colourcoats ACLE05 Graublau.

[tempestfan]

I wonder whether Jens Popp is still with us? I met him once which must have been some 30 years ago, either at Theo's at Frankfurt, or at Rettkowsky at Hamburg. Both long gone, shop and proprietor. I must still have Jens' business card somewhere...

[stevehnz]

19 hours ago, Des said:

Don't know what Revell paint availability is in NZ but pre-pandemic I was planning a three model Marinefleiger 'Ost Express' Baltic Recce project of which only the RF-104G (Basaltgrau over Silbergrau) got finished and the TSR2 'Seeadler' (overall Basaltgrau as per overall EDSG RN Buccaneers) partly done but on checking my notes here are the conclusions I came to for what would have been the Tornado IDS had it got started so no idea if it would have worked out.

 

My notes refer to paint name rather than RAL number and after so long I cannot recall if the two were checked against each other so quite possibly the shades might be off so please don't shoot the messenger , the Revell paints are described by their current Enamel/Acrylic number but for Basaltgrau Revell 32177/36177 , Grungrau Revell 32167/36167 , and for Graublau the discontinued Revell enamel 351 or Colourcoats ACLE05 Graublau.

Thanks for this Des, I'm going to go with the colours as shown by @JayBee & the Don Colour diagram  @Steve McArthur put up, they seem close to the box art in appearance which first attracted me too this & also closeish, albeit faded, to the one & only photo of this aircraft in these colours I've found. We do get some Revell paints here but not a great range, they were out of the 177, I did get a 175 aka RAL7030 & there is no RAL 7023 in the range so I'll likely use Vallejo as recommended by @Casey for these colours.

Steve.

[stevehnz]

18 hours ago, tempestfan said:

I wonder whether Jens Popp is still with us? I met him once which must have been some 30 years ago, either at Theo's at Frankfurt, or at Rettkowsky at Hamburg. Both long gone, shop and proprietor. I must still have Jens' business card somewhere...

I'm not aware of any discussion at the time as to why Don Colour ceased, whether it wasn't commercially viable anymore or whether Jens had health or other issues leading to its demise. I was too far away to buy his paints but loved the colour charts & camo diagrams which afaik were fairly accurate.

Steve.. 

[MigModeller]

Please forgive me for jumping on this thread, Kindly tell me enamel paints for the Airfix MRCA Panavia 200 option for German navy "Marine 21 + 03"

 

I have the book 'Panavia Tornado: Spearhead of NATO' BY Dr Alfred Price.  It does not show any Marine, but does show JaboG 38 a/c.  Sorry I don't have a scanner and I've not found how to post pics from my files..

 

[stevehnz]

On 11/26/2023 at 1:29 AM, MigModeller said:

Please forgive me for jumping on this thread, Kindly tell me enamel paints for the Airfix MRCA Panavia 200 option for German navy "Marine 21 + 03"

 

I have the book 'Panavia Tornado: Spearhead of NATO' BY Dr Alfred Price.  It does not show any Marine, but does show JaboG 38 a/c.  Sorry I don't have a scanner and I've not found how to post pics from my files..

 

Hi @MigModeller, I've only just seen this. Are you looking for the kits suggestions for paints, this Scalemates entry has instructions but listing Airfix paints, a conversion here, though I have my doubts as to the topside colour, that seems too light to me. If you want a recommendation from an expert, this thread may help, some great info from @JayBee who has helped me above. I'm guessing 21+03 was an early trials machine as seems about right for the kit's age.

Steve.

[MigModeller]

1 hour ago, stevehnz said:

Hi @MigModeller, I've only just seen this. Are you looking for the kits suggestions for paints, this Scalemates entry has instructions but listing Airfix paints, a conversion here, though I have my doubts as to the topside colour, that seems too light to me. If you want a recommendation from an expert, this thread may help, some great info from @JayBee who has helped me above. I'm guessing 21+03 was an early trials machine as seems about right for the kit's age.

Steve.

Thanks Stevehnz, indeed it does help.  I might try darkening H157 Azure blue and hope original decals from '70s work!

[stevehnz]

2 hours ago, MigModeller said:

Thanks Stevehnz, indeed it does help.  I might try darkening H157 Azure blue and hope original decals from '70s work!

I guess you're talking the older dark blue grey colour that Humbrol has been foisting on us for ages, rather than the light to mid blue slighly lilac shade the RAF wore in North Africa during ww2. Fwiw, I think there are better choices which you may have. Hasegawa's version of the same thing gives a Gunze colour, Mr Colour C13 or Hobby colour H22, which is their take on Neutral Gray, probably not a bad stab at RAL7012, Revell 177 is listed as an equivalent & might be a convenient starting point. Humbrol 145 is another that comes to mind as being similar. Others may have more experience with these shades than I do.

With the old decals, give them a coat or two of microscale liquid decal film, if you haven't got it I'd recommend getting some, it is a real life saver with old or dodgy decals. If there is any doubt as to their stickability, then this method might be useful too. I'll look forward to seeing this old thing.  

Steve.

[MigModeller]

Thanks for the tips stevehnz, I have both Revell 177 anh Humbrol 145 at local shops, so easy to obtain.

Might be some months before display, have to remember how to use airbrush.

[JayBee]

Interesting what Airfix choose for the Marine Tornado. 21+03 was the tactical code of a German F-104. They also choose the colors of the Marine F-104, RAL 7012 and silver belly RAL 9006 for the Tornado.

 

The German Tornado never carried this color combination. Top was RAL 7012, belly RAL 7035 for the Marineflieger.

 

First Tornado in Marineflieger livery was prototype 04, serial 98+05

Crashed April 1980 during a flight display rehearshal, killing both crewmembers.

Edited December 4, 2023 by JayBee

[tempestfan]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:22 PM, stevehnz said:

 I'm guessing 21+03 was an early trials machine as seems about right for the kit's age.

Steve.

Trials aircraft usually have/had 98+xx (but IIRC one Tornado at least had a D-[1234] registration), and I think - in contrast to "proper" Luftwaffe serials - the 98er are/were temporary only and may/could be re-allocated. The reasons for Airfix using 21+03 are probably lost in the mists of time...

@MigModeller - if you are looking for a(nother) very good coverage of the Tornado's early development, look for the book by Francis Mason. Usually cheap as chips and a great read - one of the few aviation books I read cover to cover in the past 20 years.

[JayBee]

Germany changed the registration system in 1977.

 

Prototype 01 D9591 became 98+01

Prototype 04 D9592 became 98+05

 

Other types follows, like the BWB Bronco and Condor G.91 (99+XX)

[tempestfan]

Thanks @JayBee Jürgen - my trusty Jackson only goes to 1976 I think 😉

[MigModeller]

5 hours ago, tempestfan said:

Trials aircraft usually have/had 98+xx (but IIRC one Tornado at least had a D-[1234] registration), and I think - in contrast to "proper" Luftwaffe serials - the 98er are/were temporary only and may/could be re-allocated. The reasons for Airfix using 21+03 are probably lost in the mists of time...

@MigModeller - if you are looking for a(nother) very good coverage of the Tornado's early development, look for the book by Francis Mason. Usually cheap as chips and a great read - one of the few aviation books I read cover to cover in the past 20 years.

I have Francis Mason's book on the Hawker Hunter which is very good, likewise read cover to cover.

[stevehnz]

10 hours ago, tempestfan said:

if you are looking for (another) very good coverage of the Tornado's early development, look for the book by Francis Mason. Usually cheap as chips and a great read - one of the few aviation books I read cover to cover in the past 20 years.

 

4 hours ago, MigModeller said:

I have Francis Mason's book on the Hawker Hunter which is very good, likewise read cover to cover.

I wish you guys would stop with this kind of talk, what chance do I stand now.  

Steve

[tempestfan]

3 hours ago, stevehnz said:

 

I wish you guys would stop with this kind of talk, what chance do I stand now.  

Steve

None 😜