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flarpen

1/48 Junkers Ju-86-K2 by Planes from Hungary

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Now the cooling flaps:

 

-This is the section C-D in my first drawing. Note how each flap covers 30o of the circumference. 11 equally large flaps, the last 12th/30o is covered by the carburetor cover. How the flaps overlap each other can be seen too.

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Single flap in detail and the stiffeners on the inside. I suspect that this is the top flap, no 7, since it overlaps on both sides. As the plane in the museum is elevated on plinths we have not been able to take pics from above. Not yet that is, plans are underway. The local IPMS chapter are looking into this...

 

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(TBC)

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Posted (edited)

Hi Tomas,

 

thank you very much for providing such detailed info, they are saved for future use (now I really want to convert my Italeri kit into a swedish machine).

Please keep the infos coming.

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited by Shorty84

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, will continue until all is shown. At least the engine installation, anyway. The Planes kit is so beautifully done that no further drawings needs to shown regarding other details. He seems to have got it all right in his 1/48 kit, the drawings just confirm it. 

For modifying the Italeri Ju-86E to a Swedish B3, do you know that Kora have made a whole series of detail sets/conversions? See Hannants here I have not tried them myself, being a 1/48 modeller.

Tomas

Edit: Out of curiosity I checked: it seems that Hannant's still have a lot of sets that are now OOP at the manufacturer (Kora), Might be worthwhile considering "getting them while you can".

Edited by Tomas Enerdal

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On 3/8/2020 at 7:51 PM, Shorty84 said:

ju86k_225jjsz.jpg
ju86k_233gjlq.jpg

 

 

 

Say, old chap, why are the S-49 drawings below the Junkers? Are you working on a kit?

 

Cheers,

 

Vedran

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Posted (edited)

Hi @dragonlanceHR,

well spotted. Since around 2 years I work on a model of an Ikarus S-49A in 1/48. Starting point was the fuselage of a Zvezda Yak-3, suitably modified. The vertical stabiliser was done from the reshaped wingtips of the Yak-3, the wings are shaped from a pair of Revell MiG-29 wings (1/32).

 

I've also started with the wings for an S-49C (the rest will be fully scratch built).

 

s-49azckgm.jpg

s-49cygjy0.jpg

 

(Sorry for the digression to anybody else!)

 

Cheers

Markus

Edited by Shorty84

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Posted (edited)

Can anyone comment on the color scheme the Hungarian Ju-86 depicted in the upper left hand corner—and apologies for the poor photo. Thank you spacer.png

Edited by 28ZComeback

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Kind of looks similar to some of their late War Bf109s 

 

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I have seen the light gray interpreted as dark green and the nacelles a tan. But your interpretation makes much more sense. During the last days of the war the Ju-86’s painted by German techs? 

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certainly does look similar to the top Bf109 and/or Me210 in the following:

 

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Posted (edited)

Even further to the rear:

 

-Here the actuator mechanism for the cooling flaps can be seen. Academic really, only the actuators themselves can be seen, sticking out from holes in the cover behind the cylinder bank. The size of the holes are approx. four times the dia of the actuators.

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Here the cover itself, from the from the front and from the side. This is the front part of the engine gondola. The cover in the Planes kit is rather different, a new has to made somehow by the builder. I have yet to find something useful that can be taken from a kit. The cover in the Blenheim kits will not work, wrong shape.

spacer.png spacer.png

 

(TBC)

 

Edited by Tomas Enerdal

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Posted (edited)

Those pipes...:

On the Blenheim, Gladiator and other aircraft with Mercurys, two prominent pipes can be seen, with trumpet like openings just behind the propeller. Those pipes can be found on our B3 engine installation too. But here one pipe is smaller in diameter, on the left engine the smaller pipe is outboard. I believe the smaller pipe is inboard on the righthand engine, but I admit, I forgot to check!

EDIT: I believe these pipes had something to do with ventilation of the crankcase? Never mind, I have not heard nor read anything about left- and righthanded engines. So the pipes are probably arranged the same on both sides.  

Front:

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Side:

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Top:

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(TBC)

Edited by Tomas Enerdal

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A comment regarding later Hungarian camouflage:

From the profiles it looks like Hungary did like many other axis allies, they accepted recieved German aircraft with their factory-applied camouflage (RLM74/75/76 on the 109 for example).

If they did repaint their Ju-86K-2 in a later camouflage scheme, similar to the German one, that would be interesting!

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I am finding no evidence that Hungarian Ju-86K’s were painted or re-painted in tan color. Very hard to tell in B&W photos but the lighter camouflage on Ju-86s appears to be either an olive green or light gray.

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Posted (edited)

We continue with the engine gondola on the wing:

This is section E-F in my first pic. (pic should really be turned 90clockwise). It tells a lot about the inspection hatches on the engine gondola (from which you can reach the rear of the engine and the engine bearers).

-The position of the semi-circular ventilation slots on each hatch. The upper side of the gondola can not be seen today on the museum. Let's hope the local chapter can arrange pics in this area.

-As the view of the drawing looks rearwards, note the wingfillets. This should be the left wing.

 

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This is an upper inspection hatch:

-I believe this is the central, upper hatch, no 14.

-Forward is upward in this view. Note how the rear edge is slightly angled, following the rear sweep of the forward wing spar (I).

-It seems that the forward edge is inserted under the forward bulged cover, and then held in place at the rear with circular fasteners.

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Pic from  museum, showing ventilation slot and fastener detail. 

-Also note the bulged rear cover, cooling flap actuators with their  holes, wing fillet, small bulges and oil cooler intake. One of those nice pics that show a lot..

-It looks like the inspection hatch arrangement is very similar on Hungarian Ju-86K-2 and in the Planes kit, nice!

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(TBC)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Tomas Enerdal

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George, Camouflage on Hungarian Ju-86 again;

If you go to post #52 in this tread, you'll find pic of the decals and painting instructions for the Planes kit. All there is are RLM 61/62/63/65 patterns rather similar to the Swedish ones. The small pic in post #82 is the first I've seen of a Hungarian Ju-86 painted in a different pattern.

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On 4/1/2020 at 3:00 PM, 28ZComeback said:

I am finding no evidence that Hungarian Ju-86K’s were painted or re-painted in tan color. Very hard to tell in B&W photos but the lighter camouflage on Ju-86s appears to be either an olive green or light gray.

 

 

I can ask on Hungarian forums for confirmation or for new informations if you would like.

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Borisz I would appreciate that!  There seems to be some disagreement between two factions.  Any information would be helpful. Thank you very much. 

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Finally:

-This is a drawing of the engine mount. Also purely academic, nothing can be seen unless inspection hatches will be opened.

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This, however is not academic; the oil cooler arrangement:

-This is the only drawing I found, but it shows a lot, also the inner geometry.

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In order to show what the exterior looks like, som pics from the museum;

(the light under the right engine is not so good, bu no hiding oil tray)

spacer.png spacer.png

 

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This kind of concludes what I know and can help with regarding the Swedish Ju-86/B3 engine installation.

I have more drawings and pics, but they do not add anything to anyone contemplating building the 1/48 Planes kit. Planes have captured everything just beautifully.

 

Let me know here if there is anything particular you want, and I'll see if have anything of interest.

 

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From your inspection of the plane was the interior re-furnished at some point? Can you tell the original interior color in the wheel wells and cockpit? Thank you 

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2 hours ago, 28ZComeback said:

From your inspection of the plane was the interior re-furnished at some point? Can you tell the original interior color in the wheel wells and cockpit? Thank you 

Yes, the aircraft was refurbished several times. From bomber to signal intelligence and finally transport. The cockpit could have the original color but it is hard to see since the aircraft is on support and is not really reachable.

 

/Tobias

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On 4/2/2020 at 11:12 PM, 28ZComeback said:

Borisz I would appreciate that!  There seems to be some disagreement between two factions.  Any information would be helpful. Thank you very much. 

 

Hi!

This is what I got:
 

Quote

Ha a foltminta érdekel akkor az nem volt egységesített, sőt, nálunk utasítás írta elő hogy azonos módon nem lehet tarkázni a harceszközöket.
Ha színek érdekelnek akkor azok az RLM61/62/63/65(korai) színei voltak a Junkersnél alkalmazott Herbig festékgyár színei szerint. Gunzéban a csatoltak alapján...

 

So:
The pattern was not uniformised, whats more it was a written command that they must not be painted tha same.

The colours were RLM61/62/63/65(early) what Junkers was useing made at the Herbig paint factory.  Look at the chart based on Gunze's.

 

1580674_18480_Ralgunze_zold.jpg

 

1580674_18500_Ralgunze_szurke.jpg

 

1580674_18520_Ralgunze_barna.jpg

 

 

I hope this helps.

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Posted (edited)

1. The use of current RAL 840 HR color register isn't the best idea, as during the WW2 period a different register was in use, and quite a number of colours from it were either deleted or changed after the war.
2. There is no direct correlation between RLM and RAL colour standards. For example, RAL 6003 was added to the RAL 840 R register in the regulation H. M. 1943, Nr. 181, from February 18, 1943, it was designated Olivgrün (Olive green) from the RLM colour register of camouflage paints for buildings and ground installations [Farbtonkarte des R.L.M. für Tarnfarben (Gebäude und Bodentarnung)], and got the RAL 6003 designation in regulation H.M.1943, Nr. 322, from April 3, 1943. However, the wartime samples of RAL 6003 and the aforementioned RLM for building and ground installations colour are not exact matches, and the case is the same with RAL 6003 / RLM 62 comparison (also note that at the time of RAL 6003 introduction to the RAL register, RLM 62, as well as 61 and 63, were outdated and not even included in the 1941 RLM colour card). The only source suggesting equivalence between a number of RLM and RAL colours is the so-called 'Taschenbuch fuer Lackierbetriebe', 1944 edition, which lists RAL equivalents for some of the RLM colours - this includes RLM 61 (RAL 8019), RLM 62 (RAL 6002 - Ullmann in his book "corrects" this to 6003, saying it's a typo...) and RLM 63 (RAL 7004 - not 7005 as suggested above). However:
- there are more such typos in the colour listing and the publication as a whole, which in general is weird and the copies available here and there seem incomplete and mixed. Interestingly, the original publisher  of 'Taschenbuch...' has copies of everything published in the past, with one exception - guess which?
- as mentioned above, the original samples of RLM 62 and RAL 6003 are not exact matches, and same applies to RLM 61 - RAL 8019 and RLM 63 - RAL 7004. Better! The original cards for RAL 7003 include information that the origins of this colour are RLM 02 and RAL 1 r (before the introduction of RAL 840 R register in 1939/1940, the colour designation in the previously used RAL 840 B and RAL 840 B 2 registers were different - colours were designated with one or two digit numbers, or combinations of these and letters), but the said RAL 7003 matches neither RLM 02 sample from 1938 edition of RLM colour card, nor the RLM 02 sample from the 1941 edition of RLM colour card.

As some may know, and some not, there are two popular views on the RHAF colours: one represented by Karoly Mago and the other by Denes Bernad and Gyorgy Punka (some may know their two volume publication on the Hungarian Fighter Colours released by MMP). Essentially, Mr. Mago says that the Krayer paints used in Hungary directly matched the RLM standards (although, as you can see in the post of Borisz, he uses the invalid RAL equivalents), whilst Mr. Bernad and Punka say the Krayer paints were very similar but not exactly the same. In my opinion, from the scale modelling POV, this discussion is pretty academical, and anyone simply using the RLM colours of his/her favorite brand (of course, there are some who offer more and less accurate representations) will end with a pretty accurate scale model.

P.S. If someone rstill wants to paint his model with the 'modern' RAL 6003, as far as I remember, GunzeC/H303 is a better match than C70. In fact, neither of shown Gunze samples matches the RAL samples placed next to them on the photos...

Edited by caughtinthemiddle

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Posted (edited)

Hi Sorry for the RAL 840 HR cards, but this an easily accessable color reference. This Hungarian built Focke Wulf 58 air screw's original colours (from the collection of Sandor Esses) are the same as Ju86K-2 camouflage colours:

 

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This photos were sent to me by Karoly Mago

 

Best regards Viktor

Edited by Podva

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Thank you for this information. While I am more confused than ever, I think I am beginning to realize that the colors listed on the Planes Ju-86K decal direction sheet are accurate. 

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