Dermo245 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Hi everyone, I'm building an 8th Air Force B-17F in 1/72 and want to replicate some battle damage to it. As far as technique goes, the consensus seems to be to thin the kit plastic so that it can be attacked with a knife or pliers. What I'm unsure of is the physics behind the real thing. For example, if I model bullet entry holes, do I also have to replicate corresponding exit holes? Is there any pattern to them or is it entirely random? In the case of flak, does damage to say, an upper wing require a corresponding hole in the lower wing? Sorry if the questions sound a bit thick but I'm trying to make the damage look genuine and realistic as a tribute to what the crews endured. Many thanks in advance, Dermot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertie McBoatface Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I suggest that you study the thousands of photos on google images and work from reality to your model. Working from imagination to model usually turns out looking absurd with lines of machine gum holes etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I agree, check photos of the real thing: http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPL Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 when looking at these pictures: Take the model and a gun and fire at the model! (sorry couldn't resist the temptation) NPLemche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Radleigh Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 Remember if your doing flak damage, the chances are you will see internal structure, so will have to do some scratch building. Bullet holes, not all bullets made it through, some did. I've seen battle damage from bullets with indents from the inside where they have hit and not gone through...But as said, study photos and have a go! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pte1643 Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 http://www.daveswarbirds.com/b-17/contents.htm What a fantastic collection of photo's. The fuselage section showing "All American"... How the...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermo245 Posted July 6, 2012 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 Thanks everyone and appreciate all the advice and the web link. Cheers, Dermot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Kunac-Tabinor Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 I suggest that you study the thousands of photos on google images and work from reality to your model. Working from imagination to model usually turns out looking absurd with lines of machine gum holes etc Dont "bite off more than you can chew" either - those Machine GUM holes can be tricky.... Wow - how did some of those battle damaged B17s make it home? jonners Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don McIntyre Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 (edited) And despite what Hollywood would have us believe, bullet holes don't follow a straight, evenly spaced line. This is something I did with a Monogram P-40B many years ago. For this I thinned down the plastic until it was nearly translucent with a Dremel tool, then used a #11 blade to poke through the paper-thin plastic to create the look I was wanting. For the bullet hole in the "glass," I drilled a small hole and then just scribed some "spider web" fractures with the the point of a #11 blade. Edited July 6, 2012 by Don McIntyre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermo245 Posted July 6, 2012 Author Share Posted July 6, 2012 @ Jonners - Ha ha! @ Don - nice work and I like your glass technique, will definitely give that a try. Dermot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 6, 2012 Share Posted July 6, 2012 A .303 bullet hole in 1/48 scale is less than 7000ths of an inch in diametre. There might be more damage on the exit but I reckon it's best to stick to flak and cannon damage! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Loggie Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 Dermo245, there IS another way to make bullet-wounds on a model. Paint a panel black and cover it with thin kitchen cooking-foil (glued-down, naturally). BEFORE the gluing, tie a knot in a cotton thread, and thread it (use a needle) through the foil (with the knot on the inside). You need only a short piece of thread poking out (2-3mm). Paint and cam the model as per normal, then (you guessed it) rip-out the knot. Try it on a piece of plastic card, first, to see the method, and to see if you like the effect. Good luck and have fun. George, out................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 A .303 bullet hole in 1/48 scale is less than 7000ths of an inch in diametre. There might be more damage on the exit but I reckon it's best to stick to flak and cannon damage!Steve The projectile won't just make a small hole though, it will tend to rip and tear the skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermo245 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Share Posted July 10, 2012 Dermo245, there IS another way to make bullet-wounds on a model. Paint a panel black and cover it with thin kitchen cooking-foil (glued-down, naturally). BEFORE the gluing, tie a knot in a cotton thread, and thread it (use a needle) through the foil (with the knot on the inside). You need only a short piece of thread poking out (2-3mm). Paint and cam the model as per normal, then (you guessed it) rip-out the knot. Try it on a piece of plastic card, first, to see the method, and to see if you like the effect. Good luck and have fun. George, out................... Interesting approach George and definitely worth a try too - thanks! Dermot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 The projectile won't just make a small hole though, it will tend to rip and tear the skin. Depending on many factors,not least the angle of incidence. I've had the fortune (or misfortune) to see the result of rifle calibre strikes on both aluminium and steel skinned aircraft and vehicles,not to mention the hundreds of rounds that had struck various parts of our house in Enugu,including both galvinised steel and asbestos roofing sheets and can assure you that an entry hole ,barring the deformation of the plate,is not much larger than the diametre of the projectile. So many rounds were fired at the windows of our house that the recesses,which contained the louvred windows,had literally been camfered off at about 45 degrees! A Landrover did a good impression of a giant colander. A British observer described the Nigerian Army on the advance as the "best defoliant known to man" because of its profligate and indiscriminate use of ammunition. He was probably correct. As a result I have seen a lot of bullet holes. I can also describe exactly what a 20mm cannon round does to a mud built structure but that might be a bit off topic.! Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 On aluminium-skinned fighters very often any damage from an enemy aircraft will be from around 6 o'clock (or 12 o'clock for frontal attacks or defensive fire) and bullet holes will look more like oblong streaks than round holes. Rifle calibre machine guns and ball .50's fired from far away will be stopped by any armour and dent it but not produce exit holes (50's from a closer distance would have gone through the armour, though). Cannon balls would often easily go through the armour (but also be deviated in their trajectory, somehow) while explosive rounds would tend to go off inside the skin causing larger damage (and sometimes just going straight through fabric without exploding. From what I have seen in photos and on the occasional relic, bullet-proof glass will stop rifle calibre machine gun bullets but will leave a spider-web of crack marks, while non-armoured plexiglass will tend to have irregular chunks broken off (unlike what you see in flight simulations) from the little I have seen in photos (I am happy to stand corrected on this one if anyone knows better!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire23bc Posted July 10, 2012 Share Posted July 10, 2012 There was a build a little while ago that involved shooting the model with an air rifle to achieve flak damage: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...mp;#entry752610 Not sure if that's to inspire you or scare you off... Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don McIntyre Posted July 12, 2012 Share Posted July 12, 2012 I've never seen these used, so I can't comment on how good they look on the model, and I'm not sure about availability, but this may be worth a look: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Minicraft-1-144-1-...=item2572e0ef7d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dermo245 Posted July 12, 2012 Author Share Posted July 12, 2012 @ Steve and @ Super Aereo - thanks for the info. @ Dan - that's an awesome build by Si in 1/48 and will check it out some more! (though the missus and neighbours may not be happy with live fire exercises at home!) @ Don - nice find and I guess there's a decal for everything these days. Hope to start this build in a few days and am grateful for how helpful people are on Britmodeller. Cheers, Dermot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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