Spitfire 1 No 54 Sqn DL-N Any Photos? Or indeed ideas

[Olmec Head]

I was looking at building DL-N of 54 Squadron K9843 in its 'pre war' scheme.  The markings would come from the Iliad decals set which has it as a Watts two blader and early flat canopy.  This seems to be based on a illustration profile in Spitfire the History.  Eduard also have the aircraft in their Early Spitfire Profipack kit.

BUT…

But the a/c history (from Spitfire the History) has K9843 being delivered to 41 Sqn in early 1939 and not delivered to 54 Sqn until December 1939 or early 1940.  The aviation safety wiki has K9843 as being nosed-in in 1939 and then repaired before it went to 54 Squadron. 

Is there a photograph of DL-N anywhere please after it was delivered to 54 Sqn and what ties it to the a/c number K9843?

Could DL-N actually not be K9843.  It seems very unlikely it would be a Watts prop and flat canopy in very late 1939 or early 1940 when it went to 54 Sqn.  Did 54 Sqn keep their spearhead tail markings into WW2 as I understand that they were pre war only and removed at hostilities commencing in 1939.

Is this another decal marking set that is based on profiles rather than an actual photo.  That said Morgan and Schacklady presumably had a solid reason for illustrating the aircraft in the first place.  But the do show it as 3 bladed and bulged canopy.

The Wingleader book on the Spitfire Mk1 has a single photo of a crashed 54 Sqn aircraft on page 18.  It isn’t DL-N, but DL-H or possibly DL-A.  This has a bulged canopy and three bladed prop.  Does anyone have any details on this a/c as the photo does not show any hint of a serial number?  It might be a better bet and use of the 54 sqn tail marking than DL-N as a pre-war Spitfire with 54 Sqn.

Thank you for any insights.

Edit:  I also just realised that a 54 Squadron Spitfire post 1939 would have sqn codes as KL not the previous pre-war DL.  So DL-N and K9843 seems not at all likely.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Olmec Head
Rethink!

[galgos]

If you go to the Discovery section of the National Archives and look at the ORBs for those years it may give some clues about the identities of the crashed aircraft, though there is enormous variation in the completeness and accuracy of those documents. Make sure you’re registered to get free downloads otherwise you’ll pay £3.50 per document. 

[tempestfan]

The K-File (p. 326) has 43 "Deld to 41 4.2.39 coded DL-H; landed on soft ground and tipped up, Catterick, 30.11.39; AST 10.12.39; SOC 13.5.40, to 3229M"; however, the same author's Squadrons (1988 edition) does not record the use of DL by 41, and by 54 only from 1942. I am aware that the squadron codes may not be comprehensive, but IIRC in (other) cases in which the code was changed, in particular the Great Pre-War Shuffle, this is noted.

So far, so good - what strikes me is, after having fetched M/S and a very strong light,  that they give no date for the move to 54; 10 Dec clearly refers to the move to Air Service Training; and that the SoC dates differ by more than two years.

[wmcgill]

There was a photo of DL-N in Aviation News V15#7 1986 and if I've done things correctly it should appear here.

 

Spitfire Mk.I DL-N from Aviation News V15#7 1986.jpg

Edited December 7, 2023 by wmcgill
make image appear.

[gingerbob]

OK, I've had a look at the ORBs, and K9843 is definitely with 41 Squadron.  The prang, on 30 Nov, is by a Sgt Llewellyn- he'd just damaged K9839 by landing heavily on his first [Spitfire] solo, and an hour later he damages K9843!

 

It is not looking very promising to pin a serial to 54's DLoN, but I'll look into it some more and report back.

 

bob

[tempestfan]

10 minutes ago, gingerbob said:

OK, I've had a look at the ORBs, and K9843 is definitely with 41 Squadron.  The prang, on 30 Nov, is by a Sgt Llewellyn- he'd just damaged K9839 by landing heavily on his first [Spitfire] solo, and an hour later he damages K9843!

 

Desmond? No, he was in the Army... 

Possibly he also got commissions by Supermarine 😂

[gingerbob]

He doesn't appear in the Record of operational flights (not that there are tons of them at this point), and is posted to No.12 Group Pool on 30 December.

[Olmec Head]

20 hours ago, wmcgill said:

There was a photo of DL-N in Aviation News V15#7 1986 and if I've done things correctly it should appear here.

 

Spitfire Mk.I DL-N from Aviation News V15#7 1986.jpg

 

1 hour ago, gingerbob said:

OK, I've had a look at the ORBs, and K9843 is definitely with 41 Squadron.  The prang, on 30 Nov, is by a Sgt Llewellyn- he'd just damaged K9839 by landing heavily on his first [Spitfire] solo, and an hour later he damages K9843!

 

It is not looking very promising to pin a serial to 54's DLoN, but I'll look into it some more and report back.

 

bob

Thank you firstly to @wmcgill  the photograph establishes that there is a 54 Sqn DL-N with the spearhead tail marking.  It's interesting that the photo shows it to have a 3 bladed prop and I would surmise that it would also have the new bulged hood rather than the flat one.  So the Iliad Decals profile is off the mark.  The Spitfire the History original profile at least has the correct canopy and prop.  

 

As gingerbob says, K9843 was with 41 Sqn for 1939, so it would not have been DL-N,  (41 Sqn had the prewar codes of PN and no spearhead tail marking).  Its interesting where the K9843 misidentification came from.  It is listed as DL-N K9843 in Rawlings Fighter Sqns of the RAF and in Morgan and Schacklady, so the tie-up has history, if incorrect.  I would again guess that K9843 went 54 Sqn in early 1940.

 

 

[Olmec Head]

On 07/12/2023 at 07:51, galgos said:

If you go to the Discovery section of the National Archives and look at the ORBs for those years it may give some clues about the identities of the crashed aircraft, though there is enormous variation in the completeness and accuracy of those documents. Make sure you’re registered to get free downloads otherwise you’ll pay £3.50 per document. 

Thanks I did download the ORB but it didn't have much detail.  

[galgos]

16 hours ago, Olmec Head said:

Thanks I did download the ORB but it didn't have much detail.  

Yep, it’s potluck I’m afraid. Pity…..if only those adjutants could have known what historically important documents they were compiling on a daily basis they might have tried harder! 😁

[Andy Marden]

I think it is quite likely that the association of K9843 with 54 Sqn is totally erroneous.

The photo of DL-N shows the 54 Sqn tail marking, which means it was almost certainly taken pre-war.

The AM78 aircraft record card for K9843 shows absolutely nothing other than the issue to 41 Sqn, and then its transfer to AST (for repair) on 4 December 1939 after Sgt Llewellyn's incident on 30 November 1939.  Someone has already noted its appearance in the 41 Sqn ORB during 1939.

There is no Strike date on the card, although it appears as 13.5.40 in the Air-Britain K-File, and 18.7.42 at:

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/_prodn list.txt

It was then assigned to be an instructional airframe as 3229M.  If correct, a date of around mid-1942 would seem to be about right (allocations had reached c 2300M by May 1940).

This does of course mean there is a considerable gap between it being damaged and the allocation of a M number.

I suppose it is not impossible that it went back into service, but if it did, it won't have been marked as in the photo of DL-N.

Maybe it is yet another case of someone mis-reading the serial from a poor quality photo? 

[Peter Roberts]

A couple of points if I may.

 

The Safety Network has this aircraft, K9843, nosing over on 30 November 1939 while with 41 Squadron, and at Hamble for repairs on 10 December, being reissued to 54 Squadron in February 1940 where it was coded DL-N

 

The aircraft in the photograph above carries Type B fuselage roundels which were supposed to have been converted to Type A in September 1939, so it is a good bet this photo was taken before then, which means this DL-N is probably NOT K9843, which would have still been at 41 Squadron. Note that fin flashes were not introduced officially until 1 May 1940, so the Squadron emblem was likely retained on the fin, although these and serial numbers were sometimes painted over as security measures. When K9843 served with 54 Squadron in February 1940, it would likely have had Type A fuselage roundels.

 

54 Squadron carried both KL and DL codes, but I don’t have any information as to when these were used.

 

Footnote: Sgt Llewellyn went on to have a successful career in the RAF apparently, being awarded a DFM and retiring from the Service in the ‘50s.

Edited February 27 by Peter Roberts

[Andy Marden]

Peter,

This aircraft would not have been coded DL-N in February 1940.

DL- codes were used pre-war.  On the outbreak of war, squadrons received a new code, which was KL- for 54 Sqn.

When the squadron moved to Australia in 1942, code DL- again came into use.

Andy