Canadian Squadron Markings Help

[MannMoMo]

OK, here's a question for all...Canadian markings on WWII Spitfire Squadrons. These are almost always shown as red on white, but of course there is the famous example of Johnnie Johnson's EN398 where he claims it was green and it was depicted that way in (I think the earliest?) reproductions of Airfix's markings. Having looked into this a little, what evidence was there that markings were red on white and not green as Johnson claimed?

At the time the Red Ensign used by the Canadians sported green leaves, not red (this was changed in 1957), so it would actually seem more logical that they were green and the red is a later interpretation - especially given the difficulties in distinguishing red and green in B&W photos. Does anyone know of contemporary evidence of the red on white markings applied to some RCAF Spitfires below their windscreens?

[Tail-Dragon]

Officially the leaf was red, but it is always possible that Johnson had his specially painted green to differentiate himself from the Canadians ...   Who knows for sure.

 

Thanks to Steve Sauve for the image

[JackG]

Though not an aircraft example, this image which looks to be original colour, appears to have a red leaf on the fuel truck

 

 

Going back to the history of the coat of arms on the red ensign flag,  the maple leaf sprig did have some debate as to what colour it would be.   Quoting from the link,

https://www.heraldry.ca/content/arms_badges_royal_arms.php

 

In the base of the shield was placed a sprig of three maple leaves to represent Canada. It has been theorized that three leaves were chosen to represent the three founding peoples -- French, British, and First Nations -- but it is much more likely that three was chosen because a sprig of three fits elegantly into the space of a shield (see the similar sprigs in Ontario and Quebec). There was some disagreement about the colour of the leaves: Prime Minister Borden thought that the leaves should be red, since maple leaves are most distinctive when red, while the College of Arms thought that they should be green, to signify a young, growing country. A compromise was reached: the leaves were described as "proper", which basically means that they were to be leaf-coloured. Since maple leaves can properly be red, green, or gold, depending on the time of year, it is correct to show them either way.

 

So it seems the Canadian maple leaf representation was acceptable in either red, green, or yellow.  

 

The RCAF ensign was adopted in 1940 and it contained a red maple leaf

 

Prior to that it was the standard British roundel dating back to 1921

 

It does seem the RCAF chose the red maple leaf, while the army used yellow and later gold leaf when vehicle markings became available in decal form.  

 

 

[Patrick Martin]

Hi there:

I have had one of these in my hands before - likely the same one.  It was kept by John Griffin, and is currently stored at CFB Winterpeg.  I remember the leaf as red.  I did photocopy it when John Griffin loaned me his 25 binders of notes in Ottawa way back in time when I copied the lot.  He kept notes on all of this sort of 'stuff' going back to the Imperial gift, including cloth samples from 504K etc.  I really wish I had done a bunch of them in colour (but then I could go on about colour interpretation of machines at length!!!).  All his notes were used by myself in the writing of a book on the topic of RCAF post war finish and markings "ROYAL CANADIAN AIR FORCE  -   Aircraft Finish and Markings  1947 - 1968".  There is a Vol 2 as well.  This peal and stick roundel was also used on RCAF trucks, equipment as well as aircraft.  I do have a full size photocopy as well so it cannot be wider than 8 1/2 inches - but it is close....

Pat Martin  

[RZP]

Mr. Martin’s books are essential for anyone researching RCAF markings!
 

No connection, just a happy customer and owner of the two volumes. 

 

Richard

Edited February 7, 2023 by RZP

[Biggu]

1 hour ago, RZP said:

Mr. Martin’s books are essential for anyone researching RCAF markings!
 

No connection, just a happy customer and owner of the two volumes. 

 

Richard

I totally agree, Pat's books are THE go to for expert information .. I am lucky enough to own 4 of them ....... and I refer to them ALL the time, well worth the money to purchase and I highly recommend them.....

Jeff

[Carl V]

1.          When I looked at the posting of the image of the overseas decal, it struck me that somebody might possibly get the wrong idea due to the discolouration of the central disc. It was, definitely, a light blue.

2.         I can say this with a reasonable degree of certainty as I have an actual example of this decal. Unfortunately, I have not seen it for several years and have not, at the moment, been able to lay my hands on it. I trust it has not deteriorated in the interim, but if it does turn up in the next few days, I will post an image.

3.         I regret not being able to locate it, but presumably, some day, it will bob to the surface like the proverbial. We have lived in this house since soon after we were married in 1966 and it seems as if it will take us an equal period of time to get it cleared out.

4.         I obtained this decal back in 1975 from the former Engineering Officer of 168 (HT) Squadron, RCAF. It was a remnant from the supply of those that were carried by the squadron's Liberators and Fortri on the overseas mail flights from 1944 on.

5.         It should be emphasized that this marking was not simply carried on Spitfires but on many other types. I have images of it on at least a dozen other types.

6.         If anybody wants to follow up on this, the IPMS Canada quarterly, RT, in this last summer's number, carried a magnificent and quite comprehensive article, primarily on this marking and also on the entire subject of the maple leaf motif in the RCAF during WW II.

Carl

[Tomas Enerdal]

My initial apologies if I kind of stumble into a discussion where I really know very little.

I do have the two wolumes bout Canadian Spitfires, by Robert Bracken, however. Several Spits from 402 Sq are shown in b/w pics, and are illustrated in colour with a red leaf on white circle. Also illustrated is EN398 whith callsign AE-B, stated to be flown as such before becoming Johnsons JE-J.

I cannot remember any discussion in these books about the colours of those markings, but it was some time since I actually read them. Perhaps the colours were just taken for granted at the time?

[MannMoMo]

So just to clarify, this is referencing RAF aircraft Canadian squadrons - NOT RCAF aircraft. These aircraft had standard RAF markings but sometimes a small decal added in front of the windscreen to identify them as Canadian RAF squadrons.

Don't know if that alters the answers here or if these were just the RCAF markings applied to the forward fuselage?

[Patrick Martin]

I have dug out my notes on this.  Listed by John Griffin as RCAF drawing 2658 'operational Badge'. 

The Griffin notes do not infer exactly that this is a wartime or an immediate post war official use roundel (- which I would have known about).

I have no such official drawing.  When I look the drawing number, I get the inventory card for a Harvard. 

....the colours are;

outer ring Blue 2-206, 

inner surface Blue Azure

leaf Red 9-202

veins Black 10-201

I do see 19 different colour standards used between 1920 and 1965 ....

So if I live long enough I just may get to cover the post Great War up to 1947 period.. but there are thousands of pages of notes

 

Pat Martin

now if only I could find a Dutch NF-5 expert ....

[MannMoMo]

Thanks Patrick - as I mentioned, I'm looking for kind of "unit badges" for RAF aircraft I suppose, as shown below

 

 

 

Same aircraft flown earlier in 1943 by Ian Keltie

 

 

The latter is depicted as red on white, the former as both red on white and green on white. However, I'm having a hard time finding actual period evidence for the actual colour of these - they could both easily be red, or both easily be green. What I'm trying to find is what evidence there is for either, since it seems in scant supply and I'm wondering if the red on white is just a post-war assumption as the red ensign depicted green leaves prior to 1947?

[Tail-Dragon]

As I understand it, the decal was supplied to RCAF squadrons operating in the RAF to identify them as Canadians. Ian Keltie's EN398 was undoubtably marked as such when it was in 402 Squadron.

However, when Johnson took the plane over, he had it repainted (he speaks of this in his book 'Wing Leader') eliminating the scuff marks, 'Popeye' nose art and the decal, adding Johnson's initials, and resulting in the 'stencil' type serial number in its unusual location. 50 years later, when asked, Johnson recalled the leaf as being green, but that would have required it to be hand painted by the Canadian Squadron painters by special order.  Note - that is a possibility as the Johnson's leaf does appear slightly larger in the photos than the supplied decal leaf.

There is no real evidence either way. 

Personally, with all the duties and obligations of assuming command of three Squadrons, I would find it hard to believe that he would concern himself with such a small detail when issuing his instructions, but we can never know for certain.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Tail-Dragon

[JackG]

I require a history lesson understanding the concept “RAF aircraft Canadian squadrons“ unless it is referring to Canadian pilots flying with RAF squadrons?   In the case of Johnnie Johnson, he was a British wing leader commanding an RCAF wing composed of three RCAF squadrons.

 

The particular 8 inch decal of the maple leaf introduced in 1943 had also been recently been discussed by a facebook group dedicated to Canadian aircraft.  There too it was referred to as a “distinguishing emblem” of the RCAF.     Canadian pilots did serve in RAF squadrons, but if a maple leaf was used in this instance it was more a personal marking than a reflection of the unit.  

 

There is one RAF unit, no. 5 squadron, that had in 1937 adopted a green leaf in their squadron badge to acknowledge their past collaboration with the Canadian Corps during the First World War.   Perhaps the late Mr. Johnson had similarly chosen the green leaf to commemorate Canada's past and current contributions?

 

[Patrick Martin]

Till the day somedomebody comes up with a colour photo .....

[Tail-Dragon]

3 hours ago, Patrick Martin said:

Till the day somedomebody comes up with a colour photo .....

When the invention of the first functioning home time machine occurs, modelers all over the world will rejoice!

[JackG]

A green leaf marking that comes quick to mind as used by a Canadian, is John Kent when commanding 303 squadron.   Note it has a white Polish Eagle within the leaf.   In b/w the leaf appears light enough to see the black details but that could be just the film type (or perhaps a light green paint) compared to what is seen in 1943 and later, when red was made official leaf colour for the RCAF.

 

 

[dogsbody]

Some intel from @Carl V:

 

 

1.             I have found this thread particularly interesting and there has certainly been much valuable information and speculation.

2.            Thanks to my good friend Dogsbody, I am posting the following remarks and photos, although I am not certain whether the quantity of text will be regarded as an overload. If not, any reader that finds me too prolix can skip the text and move on to the pretty pictures.

3.            The entire subject of the overseas roundel and its possible variants can be laid directly at the door of the frustration of the Canadian government in general and the RCAF in particular at the anonymity, to say nothing of lack of control, of the RCAF's overseas efforts.

4.            It is difficult nowadays, particularly considering Canada's less than impressive current military status, to comprehend the extent of its wartime commitment. As far as the RCAF is concerned, there were three huge commitments. There was the British Commonwealth Air Training Plan (BCATP) which, among its various establishments, contained nearly 100 schools and operational training units. Its Home War Establishment (HWE) operating, at one time or another, 50 squadrons as well as smaller units. Finally, the RCAF overseas eventually had 47 RCAF squadrons. These comprised 9 HWE squadrons sent overseas, 35 squadrons formed overseas under Article 15 of the BCATP Agreement and 3 AOP units formed overseas late in the war. While RCAF Overseas Headquarters exerted a certain amount of authority over these units, they were under the operational control of the RAF.

5.            In addition, despite the large number of RCAF personnel in these overseas units, approximately 60 percent of RCAF personnel overseas, mainly aircrew, served in RAF units. Also, there were a significant number of Canadians in the RAF, colloquially known as CanRAF who had joined before the war or early in it.

6.            incidentally, the term “Canadian Squadron, it is somewhat of an anomaly – either the unit was RCAF or it was not. True, there were two RAF units that were formed, with less than total success, from personnel from their respective Dominions, 242 Canadian Squadron and 125 Newfoundland Squadron.

7.            To cut the whole thing short, as I have mentioned, there was an enormous amount of bitter resentment at the lack of visible Canadian identity of the overseas units. In the midst of the whole attempt at "Canadianization” etc. which has been thoroughly covered in both official and unofficial research and writing, one minor aspect of the identification that was attempted was the "overseas roundel."

8.            Unfortunately, it is obvious from photographic evidence that this emblem was applied neither consistently nor comprehensively, which is understandable considering the limited control that RCAF Overseas Headquarters had over these RCAF squadrons operating within the RAF structure. I am not certain to what degree this applies in post WW II RCAF units (doubtless Patrick knows) but it is blindingly obvious that during WW II there was an enormous gap between policy and promulgation, and between promulgation and practice.

9.            What appears to be apparent from photographic evidence, the only evidence that, in my opinion, holds up even slightly, the majority of these little roundels were the standard overseas roundel or, else, some attempt to replicate them, possibly because of the non-availability of the real thing. To my mind, there is no hard evidence and no apparent motivation, for a green leaf. Also, despite my reluctance to so much as tiptoe into the minefield of attempting to deduce colour from black and white images, the central discs almost universally appear somewhat darker than white.

10.          As far as the JEJ Spitfire is concerned, I think it is most likely that Johnson as "leader of the Canadians" got an early example of the roundel and applied it to his aircraft. When, some time down the road, he was asked about the colour, he simply could not remember (a common failing of even the most intelligent people after the passage of time) and opted for green. Certainly, if I was modelling the aircraft, I would just put a standard overseas roundel on the thing.

 

 

Photographs:  I have selected a few images that give  some idea of the variety of aircraft carrying the overseas roundel or simply the maple leaf motif.

Overseas:

1.             Boston, 418 Squadron

2.            Mustang, 414 Squadron

3.            Beaufighter, 406 Squadron

4.            Liberator, 426 Squadron

5.            Halifax, unit unknown

6.            Lancaster II, 408 Squadron

HWE

7.            Canso, 162 (BR) Squadron Iceland

8.            Fortress, 168 (HT) Squadron

9.            Dakota, 168 (HT) Squadron, Overseas Detachment

SEAC

10           Mohawk, 5 Squadron RAF. I am not certain whether the maple leaf is painted because of the Squadron badge (I have never seen another Mohawk carrying it) or because the two pilots in the picture are RCAF.

11.           Liberator VI, 159 Squadron RAF. It is a little-known fact that in the last year or so of the war, the Liberator crews of the RAF had a very large percentage of RCAF aircrew, on some occasions nearly half. At one time some of these squadrons were being considered for transfer to the RCAF.

 

 

Carl

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Chris, for Carl

[MannMoMo]

Thanks for the information - the only dispute I have with it is (10) - in that EN398 had a Canadian marking on it prior to Johnson choosing the aircraft, when it was flown by Ian Keltie. Whether it was repainted or not when he took it on, I don't know!

[Carl V]

 

You are correct and it is probably simply a matter of Johnson in his position of Wing Leader retaining it, either deliberately or simply accepting the fact. As far as repainting goes, I think it unlikely due to lack of motive, but, as I'm sure we both agree, who knows?

Carl

[Paul Lucas]

On 04/02/2023 at 23:22, MannMoMo said:

Does anyone know of contemporary evidence of the red on white markings applied to some RCAF Spitfires below their windscreens?

I have a copy of a Postagram dated 19 November 1942 from the Air Ministry to a wide range of high level formations such as HQ Fighter, Bomber and Coastal Commands, the Admiralty, War Office, HQ 8th Air Force and so on.

It opened with the statement that "The following amendments have been made to the regulations for camouflage colouring and marking of aircraft and an amending A.M.O. will be issued in due course." 

Paragraph 7 was headed "Emblem for R.C.A.F. Squadrons." This paragraph stated that "The following distinguishing marking has been approved for all aircraft of R.C.A.F. Overseas Squadrons :-

An emblem consisting of a circular disc of 8" diameter with 1/2" outer roundel of dark blue and R.A.F. Blue centre in which is inserted a maple leaf in red. These emblems will be worn on the port side of the fuselage forward of the leading edge."

[Carl V]

Paul:

            That is a most valuable and gratifyingly authentic piece of information. Thanx.

Carl

[JackG]

What shade of blue was R.A.F. Blue and was this colour present also on the squadron leader pennant?

 

A few more near end of war examples

 

 

 

[Tail-Dragon]

1 hour ago, JackG said:

What shade of blue was R.A.F. Blue and was this colour present also on the squadron leader pennant?

If I was to guess, I'd go with the pale blue-grey of the squadron leaders pennant and the RCAF ensign shown on the 3rd entry on this entry. Unfortunately, all the decal manufactures have incorrectly gone with a white background! The original decal that I posted looks like a badly faded and yellowed version of this color.

[JackG]

I think the door is open for some later variation from that official 1942 memo on the leaf emblem.  Photo examples do show placement on the starboard side as well.

This example has the background behind the leaf is decidedly much lighter the lightest portions of the pennant marking.

 

[Paul Lucas]

 

 

15 hours ago, JackG said:

What shade of blue was R.A.F. Blue and was this colour present also on the squadron leader pennant?

14 hours ago, Tail-Dragon said:

If I was to guess, I'd go with the pale blue-grey of the squadron leaders pennant and the RCAF ensign shown on the 3rd entry on this entry. 

 

This guess is correct.

The pennant markings originated in Air Ministry Weekly Order 782/1918 that was entitled 'Distinguishing Flags and Lamps for R.A.F. dated 2 August 1918. The colours to be used in the flags are given as 'dark blue', 'light blue' and 'red' with the two blues being given as 'R.A.F. colours'.

 

When the RAF Ensign was promulgated by AMWO 273/21 on 14 April 1921 it was stated that "1. The following ensign is hereby established and shall be recognised as the colours of the Royal Air Force, that is to say: of light blue, in the dexter canton the Union, and in the centre of the fly of the flag three roundels superimposed, red, upon white,upon blue;..."

 

The term 'R.A.F. Blue' seems to have originated in January 1936 following the issue of AMO A.14/36 of 16 January 1936 that was entitled 'Unit Badges'. It was this AMO that introduced the Standard Frame badge shown here, though the 1936 version featured a Kings Crown.

On 11/02/2023 at 15:22, JackG said:

 

The Chester Herald of the Royal College of Arms used the term 'R.A.F. Blue' in a press release to describe the blue colour used in the frame of the badge, apparently not realising that the colour that had been used in the initial batch of badges to have been approved was slightly darker than the light blue used in the RAF Ensign.

 

When this was noticed there was some debate as to whether the  light blue of the RAF Ensign or the colour used in the badge frames should be adopted as 'R.A.F. Blue' now that the term was known to the public. After some debate, on 30 September 1936, the Air Ministry wrote to the Royal College to inform it that the Air Council had decided that 'R.A.F. Blue' "...is the Azure bunting of the R.A.F. Ensign."  It was requested that future badges would have that colour in the frame.

 

So what colour is RAF Blue?

As part of the debate referred to above, a sample of the light blue bunting was placed on file. This is identified as 'Bunting - Azure' Vocabulary Reference No. 32B/219. When compared with NCS 1950 by eye it looks similar to S 2040 - B.

 

The problem with this is that many photographs, including some of those posted in this thread, appear to show a much lighter colour being used. It might be the case that where the marking was applied by paint rather than decal, it was sometimes necessary to obey the spirit rather than the letter of the instructions. Perhaps Sky Blue  or even possibly White could have been used if a supply of RAF Blue was unavailable.

 

10 hours ago, JackG said:

I think the door is open for some later variation from that official 1942 memo on the leaf emblem.  Photo examples do show placement on the starboard side as well.

It is possible that there was a later instruction of some sort. All you have to do is find it.

It might be the case that on occasion the authorities permitted the regulations to be bent for the greater good...