RAF Mustang III

[zaxos345]

Good evening guys, would someone happen to know if the part of the flap that retracts under the wing's trailing edge on a RAF Mustang III and it was visible when the flaps were down, was left unpainted or was the camo color?

Thanks in advance, John

P.S. I read somewhere, that there was a fee for the pilot who did not leave the flaps down after the engine shut down, is it really a fact?

[Chuck1945]

You got quite a few responses when you asked the same question on ARC: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index....howtopic=226543

[Steven Eisenman]

..and I agree that the flap forward edge was painted. Look at the RAF Thunderbolt post below, it clearly shows the entire flap was camouflaged, and the front edge was neither natural metal nor aluminum. Also note that the SEAC white wing bad was pain ted on the leading edge of the flap also... You also have to remember that the aircraft in question were manufactured in the UAS. All camouflaged aircraft had the full flap camouflaged at the factory. The RAF repainted both the Mustang and T'bolt. So that part would have been repainted also. But if you want to believe otherwise, then feel free.

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=65402

[Edgar]

P.S. I read somewhere, that there was a fee for the pilot who did not leave the flaps down after the engine shut down, is it really a fact?

It was the other way round; if he didn't retract the flaps, immediately after his landing run, and before starting to taxy in, the C.O. was likely to fine him a small sum (reports vary on the amount,) which would go into the Mess fund, for future parties. The "tradition" lasted (at least) until the arrival of the Hunter.

Edgar

[David M]

John,

Check the pattern of the uppersurface camouflage for the one you are modelling: the various Mustang schemes usually follow distinctive and readily identifiable patterns and are your best guide to the likely flap finish.

Ex factory the leading edge of the flaps on MkIII and MkIVA Mustangs camouflaged in the 'Factory'/'RAF1'/'TO' scheme were unpainted.

Most (probably all?) of the ones repainted by 159 MU in Italy (aka the 'RAF4' or 'Firewall' pattern) had unpainted flap leading edges.

Those repainted in the UK (eg the 'Loop'/'RAF2' pattern) vary so you need to check your references for each a/c to be certain.

David

(Author: Southern Cross Mustangs)

[Steven Eisenman]

John,

Check the pattern of the uppersurface camouflage for the one you are modelling: the various Mustang schemes usually follow distinctive and readily identifiable patterns and are your best guide to the likely flap finish.

Ex factory the leading edge of the flaps on MkIII and MkIVA Mustangs camouflaged in the 'Factory'/'RAF1'/'TO' scheme were unpainted.

Most (probably all?) of the ones repainted by 159 MU in Italy (aka the 'RAF4' or 'Firewall' pattern) had unpainted flap leading edges.

Those repainted in the UK (eg the 'Loop'/'RAF2' pattern) vary so you need to check your references for each a/c to be certain.

David

(Author: Southern Cross Mustangs)

I defer to your expertise, but as they were painted in the USA and repainted in the UK, what evidence is there of an unpainted forward portion to the flap?

[zaxos345]

Thank you very much for your replies. I am asking this question for a friend of mine who is modelling a RAF Musatang III of the 19th SQN, QV-V, being flown by a Greek RAF ace, the same i will deal with after the spitfire project, so we need to be as close to the original as we can. Unfortunatelly we dont have a lot of photos of the specific aircraft.

Chuck, this is the reason that i opened the same topic here, as at the ARC, to get as much opinions and knowledge as i can. The fact that the same question is being asked on another forum does not mean that it cannot be asked also here, i think that this is what the forums are for, exchanging ideas, knowledge etc. Thanks anyway.

Steven, i have read about that but i have also seen some photos showing this part left unpainted as well as painted, that why i am asking for info, to try to get somewhere ''safe''.

Edgar, thanks for the info.

David, unfortynatelly i dont have lots of photoes of the specific aircraft but the provided info are most useful.

John

[David M]

Steven,

The available evidence is mainly photographic with some material drawn from NAA's documentation.

All the images I have seen where the flap edge is visible on a/c wearing the NAA applied 'RAF1/TO' pattern show the uppersurface camouflage stopping at a span-wise line toward the front of the flap, i.e. at about the point where the raised flap is covered by the trailing edge of the wing proper. Forward of that line appears to be unpainted with just the usual the black/white striped flap indicator marking at about the quarter span of the flap. It is conceivable that they were finished in the undersurface colour, but it in my view it is more likely that the leading edges were left in primer: this would accord with the NAA painting documents which called for primer but no finish coat to areas 'not normally visible' on the aircraft.

Some of the examples known to have been repainted by 159 MU in Italy in 'RAF4/Firewall' seem to have the same arrangement. However, on checking again a couple do have the leading edge in uppersurface camo, albeit what looks like a light coat such that the factory scheme demarkation line and indicator marking remain visible.

The ones repainted in the UK seem to have been a more variable feast as suggested and illustrated by the various postings on ARC. 3 Squadron RAAF used only a couple of Mustangs in these schemes; too few to draw any sensible conclusions. However a quick survey of my more limited collection of images of RAF a/c in UK schemes confirms some leading edges were painted and others were not. Others with more images may be able to advise in greater detail...

David

[Steven Eisenman]

Steven,

The available evidence is mainly photographic with some material drawn from NAA's documentation.

All the images I have seen where the flap edge is visible on a/c wearing the NAA applied 'RAF1/TO' pattern show the uppersurface camouflage stopping at a span-wise line toward the front of the flap, i.e. at about the point where the raised flap is covered by the trailing edge of the wing proper. Forward of that line appears to be unpainted with just the usual the black/white striped flap indicator marking at about the quarter span of the flap. It is conceivable that they were finished in the undersurface colour, but it in my view it is more likely that the leading edges were left in primer: this would accord with the NAA painting documents which called for primer but no finish coat to areas 'not normally visible' on the aircraft.

Some of the examples known to have been repainted by 159 MU in Italy in 'RAF4/Firewall' seem to have the same arrangement. However, on checking again a couple do have the leading edge in uppersurface camo, albeit what looks like a light coat such that the factory scheme demarkation line and indicator marking remain visible.

The ones repainted in the UK seem to have been a more variable feast as suggested and illustrated by the various postings on ARC. 3 Squadron RAAF used only a couple of Mustangs in these schemes; too few to draw any sensible conclusions. However a quick survey of my more limited collection of images of RAF a/c in UK schemes confirms some leading edges were painted and others were not. Others with more images may be able to advise in greater detail...

David

There is often reference to NAA records and photo evidence, the problem is that there is little more I see than that reference to NAA stuff and photos.

I'd love to see some documentation and the clear photos. Most that were posted at ARC do not show an unpainted portion and the one that allegedly might, is so unclear.

[zaxos345]

Good morning guys, as i am in the process of building a P-51 Mustang III also, i have some questions for you.

1. What about the auxiliary ring sight? was it present to all the mustangs? Mustang III?

2. Also in these pictures i cannot see any rear view mirror, was there any?

3. On the same pics you can see next to the wip antenna a small thing, dont know how to name it, what is that? Was it present to all Mustangs? Is there any drawing or a good picture of that in order to scratch build it?

Here you can see this detail

Also here

Also this red fuel tap (?) there is on the drawing profile, was it really red in real life? Because judging from the war photoes i can't see anything red on the aircrafts!

4. What was the color of the rear wheel well? ZCY or aluminium?

5. What was the color of the map case in the Mustang III. Judging from the photo above it seems metallic to me and painted in the cockpit color, am i right?

6. Finally, what was the size of the sky squadron letters on the fuselage and the size of the black code ones on the rear? I will have to make masks for them as i am planning to paint them.

Thank you in advance.

John

[gingerbob]

The thing next to the whip antenna is some sort of (exit?) vent, I believe. Assuming that I'm thinking of the same "thing" that you are!

Many RAF Mustang IIIs were very early ones, and did not have the aft fuel tank, thus no red circle. I believe that red would be standard when the filler port was present.

bob

[Edgar]

1/. Auxiliary ring-and-bead only seems to have applied to a/c using the early American gunsight, which, apparently, could be temperamental. RAF Mustangs would have used the normal Barr & Stroud sight.

2/. Probably internal, since the curve of the Malcolm canopy got in the way.

3/. a/. No idea b/. not all C/III Mustangs had the fuselage fuel tanks.

4/. ?????? On a D, that I photographed, it was green.

5/. Map case appears to be fabric, so possibly O.D.

6/. "QV" codes are standard 24" codes, while the "UZ" Squadron appears to have pinched the Spitfire dispensation, and done them in 20". Serials were black and 8" high by 5" wide.

Edgar

[Andrew Jones]

Only aircraft in the serial blocks FB350-399, HB900-961 and KH421-640 had the rear fuselage tank fitted, aircraft in the serial blocks FB100-124, FB125-349 and FX and FZ serialed aircraft did not have fuselage tanks and therefore no red filler cap.

[zaxos345]

Guys thanks for your answers. Andrew you really f@#$$% me up (just joking man), i have the aires resign cockpit that has already the fuselage tank installed!!! I have to really think a lot about my next move. Are there any photos, drawings etc. of that area without the fuselage tank installed?

John

Edited July 30, 2011 by zaxos345

[zaxos345]

Serials were black and 8" high by 5" wide.

Edgar

Edgar you mean each letter was 8x5''? The gap between?

John

[Edgar]

1" and brush strokes 1" wide.

Edgar

[brewerjerry]

There is often reference to NAA records and photo evidence, the problem is that there is little more I see than that reference to NAA stuff and photos.

I'd love to see some documentation and the clear photos. Most that were posted at ARC do not show an unpainted portion and the one that allegedly might, is so unclear.

Hi

It could well be that those who have had access to the records do not, or can not post the info, for various reasons...i.e.

To prevent it being spread all over the net,

I have stuff from my research of archives not generally available to the public,access was granted purely for my use in a book,hence I can't post it anywhere.

Or they are saving it for a future publication.

The golden rule for me

Just because i haven't seen doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Cheers

Jerry

[zaxos345]

1" and brush strokes 1" wide.

Edgar

Edgar what do you mean by saying '' brush strokes 1" wide'' ? the width of the letter?

John

P.S. Ok Edgar i figured it out, thanks

Edited July 31, 2011 by zaxos345