Info on 203 Squadron Liberator SEAC 1945

[bull-nut]

I have an idea for an upcoming build of my great uncles Lib VI in which he was killed March 20th 1945 and I have a few things I need to figure out before I start.
The aircraft in question is KG986 F-Freddy of 203 sqn in which he was a wireless operator/air gunner. It was shot down by ground fire just off the port of Oelehleh, Sumatra.

Questions

1. How would 203 have painted the upper surfaces of their MKVIs?
2. What colour would the aircraft codes have been on a SEAC Libby
3. Would the old Airfix kit suffice or should I splash out on the Hasegawa? Or is there another J out there that I could use?
4. Most importantly, does anyone have any period images of this aircraft they could show me for reference?

Heres hoping for Uncle Wilf and the rest of the lads.

Thanks in advance.

Edited November 18, 2015 by bull-nut

[Troy Smith]

I have an idea for an upcoming build of my great uncles Lib VI in which he was killed March 20th 1945 and I have a few things I need to figure out before I start.

The aircraft in question is KG986 F-Freddy of 203 sqn in which he was a wireless operator/air gunner. It was shot down by ground fire just off the port of Oelehleh, Sumatra.

Questions

1. How would 203 have painted the upper surfaces of their MKVIs?

2. What colour would the aircraft codes have been on a SEAC Libby

3. Would the old Airfix kit suffice or should I splash out on the Hasegawa? Or is there another J out there that I could use?

4. Most importantly, does anyone have any period images of this aircraft they could show me for reference?

Heres hoping for Uncle Wilf and the rest of the lads.

Thanks in advance.

I'd suggest using the editor, then Full Editor, and change heading to

Info on 203 Squadron Liberator SEAC 1945, as it's a lot clearer.

From what I have seen SEAC B-24's were in Olive Drab over Neutral Gray, some maybe were in NMF.

Rather than talk out my bottom, I hit google

http://www.rquirk.com/203.html

The Painting by Frank Wootton P.G. Av A

"P/O Eric. H Cocks, RAAF, flying a B24, 203 Squadron RAF

in a low level bombing attack on enemy ships in Bandon Harbour, Malaya

6th July 1945"

(presented here courtesy of E. H. Cocks)

You might want to contact the linked site, the above image is interesting, I presume this is OD on top with added white.

Nick Millman, would be a good chap on this, he has a blog, (invite only now) about US Aircraft in SEAC use. If he does not post you might want to PM him, he is extremely knowledgeable and helpful.

this photo shows a similar scheme,

http://www.grahamtall.co.uk/wgs1955/War%20Memorial/War%20Dead%20letters/Dunkley%20Jack/Dunkley's-Liberator-K-at-Sigiriya-239-copy.jpg

and to be honest I'd never known the SEAC B-24's were done in these markings before I searched this up.

Kits, the Airfix kit is not very accurate.

The Hase kit is rated as the best, but is expensive and hard to find. The Academy kit is rated as a reasonable compromise.

there was a group build here for the B-24

B-24 Liberator Single Type Group Build

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/forum/522-b-24-liberator-single-type-group-build/

which will be worth a peruse for hints and tip and opinions on kits.

also

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234910095-best-b-24-in-172/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234979681-the-b-24-172-problem/

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234988359-best-172nd-b-17-b-24/

tip - the site search is not very good, but if you add 'britmodeller' into your search term, you can find threads more easily, I knew there had been discussons on this, googled "britmodeller best b-24"

Hyperscale is good for information.

Warning, if accuracy is your thing, the variation of details on B-24's will give you a headache, fast, depending on what built them there are different nose, turrets and a load of other details...put is this way, the book that deals with this is called "Consolidated Mess"

http://www.hyperscale.com/2012/reviews/books/mmp9116bookreviewjm_1.htm

The author explains that this book does not address the early 'glass nose' versions (though happily he suggests these would be covered in an upcoming volume), it is not a combat history, nor (primarily) a camouflage and markings treatise. It focuses on USAAF versions with nose turrets. But within that compass, Griffith has provided a comprehensive examination, first of early nose turret installations done at Air Depot level, and then descriptions of detail variations in production aircraft, by manufacturer and production block. Drawings and photographs explain the several versions of the Consolidated A-6 turrets, the Emerson A-15 turret, and the Martin 250 top turret (clarifying the development of the Martin's glazing) as well as previously obscure hand-held tail gun installations. While hand-held ventral guns are illustrated, the Bendix ventral ball turret is not emphasized since ample coverage already exists. Other variables discussed and amply illustrated include:

• progressive development of waist window gun stations including the eventual enclosed positions;

• canopy window changes and the use of appliqué armor;

• making sense of the many different window configurations on the nose area, as well as noting production blocks that omitted the lower rear fuselage windows;

• changes in pitot installations, trim tabs and even tail skids;

• inwardly retracting vs. outwardly retracting nose gear doors.

Several appendices cover related topics such as:

• complete serial block listings in serial order and then cross referenced by manufacturer and block number;

• a listing of known glass-nose aircraft to which forward turrets were added at the Air Depot level;

• an explanation of the bomb-bay door structure;

• illustrations of camouflage and, for natural metal aircraft, antiglare panel demarcations, which varied by production source (the drawing for camouflaged Ford B-24's was omitted due to a layout mistake, but is included with this review and is also available at the MMP website). Regretably, this section does not also include a discussion of related variations in the location of the fuselage national insignia.

as you have a serial, it should be pretty easy to pin down what the US production block was.....

and hopefully someone who really knows about this will be along to give a proper answer and more information.

HTH

[bull-nut]

Thanks for the reply. Title changed.

I'm not after a super accurate model, I really don't have the time to commit to getting everything exactly right, so whatever kit I choose will likely get built OOB.

I had already found rquirks site, that was where I found the aircraft reg, and also the painting you linked to, but thanks for your efforts.

I sort of dismissed the painting though, because a: it isnt a period image, and b: it doesnt show the upper surfaces very well.

The photo of FL911 is new to me, thanks, but raises more questions in my mind because there seems to be a camo demarcation on the upper fuselage in the image just forward of the starboard verticle stab, though it could also just be a repaint patch. I've also seen line drawings of SEAC RAF Libs in both single and two colour uppers. Looks like I may have to invest in some more reference material. Any suggestions?

Sorry, one more question, what do people think would be a good price to pay for an academy/minicraft Lib VI? £30 sound reasonable?

Edited November 18, 2015 by bull-nut

[tonyot]

The painting is pretty much how you would imagine a `coastal' Lib to look in SEAC, with white undersides and Extra Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces although I`m not sure about the SEAC roundels under the wings.

This is KG849/A;

Most RAF Lib units in SEAC wore fin markings to identify the unit but I don`t think that 203 Sqn was among them. Here are some of them;

I would say that the code letter on the fuselage was probably grey or Azure Blue,...it is hard to say for sure. If it was grey then Medium Sea Grey is the most likely although Slate Grey was actually the official colour?

Good luck with your model,

Cheers

Tony

PS- Kits at War do a Liberator sheet which might help with some of the markings;

Edited November 18, 2015 by tonyot

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

If you can source one, Eduard reboxed the Academy/Minicraft Liberator Mk VI. It was about £40 as it had some nice colour etch seatbelts and instrument panels, along with canopy/wheel mask, 6 marking options (MUCH better decals than Academy/Minicaft) and a lovely clear colour instruction booklet. If you can find one for a decent price, it's worth getting over the Academy/Minicraft kit.

thanks

Mike

[Graham Boak]

Frank Wootton was an official artist in the Far East, so he will have seen these aircraft, even if the final painting was later. Perhaps he just missed (or had forgotten) that these aircraft didn't wear underwing roundels, as confirmed in several photos. However one surprising feature is that these Libs were not carrying the EDSG tops, but the earlier pattern of EDSG and Dark Slate Grey. When this fades it can look like a monochrome top in b&w photos, but there are a number of photos of similar and later serials that clearly show two colours on the top. This can be seen on a number of photos including ones of KG984 and KH141. Even more surprising, KH894 was heading for a UK unit when the photo was taken in August 1944, long after the adoption of the single-colour top.

By far the best source is Air Britain's The Liberator in RAF and Commonwealth Service, by James D Oughton. It is full of technical detail, photographs, colour profiles, squadron histories and an individual history of every Liberator so used. It has obviously little on KG986 other than its dates of delivery, transit through Prestwick for conversion to Coastal standard, passage to India etc.. It was lost on its first operation.

Re FL911: I suspect this was before the introduction of the single colour top, and repainting would not have been a priority for these large aircraft. Halifaxes are also seen with two-colour upper surfaces long after the introduction of the later scheme..

[bull-nut]

Thanks for your help everyone, if I can summarise very quickly then;

Two tone EDSG/DSLG uppers with white lower surfaces (probably with a hint of grey/buff since I have failed every time I've tried to paint a smooth pure white)

SEAC two tone roundels on all surfaces except wing undersides,

Aircraft letter codes in MSG or SLG, need to search out some decals for those and the roundels. Xtradecal?

I think I'll check the some auction sites and see if I can pick up the Academy/Minicraft kit, I may even pick up some replacement engines and superchargers as well.

That image of KG849 seems to show the ventral ball turret in place too, so, assuming '986 was equipped the same way, that saves me having to blank off the opening or fabricate the pintle gun position I've heard about.

Once again, my most sincere thanks too you all for the help, time to spend some of my hard earned money I guess!

[Graham Boak]

KG984 appears to have the H2X "thimble" fitting (I don't recall the ASV number) instead of the belly guns. This seems to be the case on all the photos I can immediately find of Coastal Libs at this time, and at least some of the bombers. Other photos show either the ball turret or nothing - I don't think the ball turret was visible when retracted.

I think it is the H2X that can be seen on KG849. If you are not familiar with this it is cylindrical with a hemispherical bottom, and this is what you see peeking under the belly.

[bull-nut]

Found this site that confirms NG986 was a GR VI, rather than a Bomber Command spec B Mk VI, which also confirms the presence of the retractable radome.

http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_bombers/b24_21.html

That's a relief since I already ordered the B-17 H2X radome from Blackbird models!

Oddly, his list of CC Liberator squadrons omits 203 sqn. I'm choosing to ignore this on the grounds that it could merely be a mistake on his part.

Further reading shows that some CC Libs were fitted with a Leigh light under the Stbd wing, does anyone know if this included those in SEAC use? I haven't found anything concrete either way. It's possible I suppose, though as an ASW item, how useful would it have been out in the far east? If no facts come to light (pun intended), I may get the pavla set and use it anyway since it will add something else that bit different on the model, and a crewman cleaning the lens will make a nice use for the trestle I have in the Airfix resupply set that's sat in the stash.

This project seems to be getting less and less OOB, next thing you know, I'll be building a full interior

Edited November 23, 2015 by bull-nut

[bull-nut]

Little update, I've found this image in a book that claims to be an ex 203 sqn aircraft. I know the 'G' suffix indicates that the aircraft was to be under constant guard, but would this apply to all H2X equipped aircraft, or would there be another reason?

Edit: Also, this is the only image I have found claiming to be of a 203 bird that shows any black fin markings, would the ground crew have painted them out for some reason or could they be a Post war addition? Rquirk does not list KH342 as belonging to 203sqn.

Edited December 14, 2015 by bull-nut

[tonyot]

I have seen tail stripes on a Liberator GR.V too but they were very rare. I cannot find the actual photo but it was very similar to these;

Also,.....here are couple of rare `Dumbo`s' in SEAC markings too;

Cheers

Tony

PS- I meant to say,...note the underwing SEAC roundel on `H',....so some Lib`s did carry these roundels under the wings after all.

Edited December 14, 2015 by tonyot

[bull-nut]

Tony:

Interesting shots. The fuselage roundels on '945 peeked my interest since they don't appear to be standard SEAC colours, having a lighter outer ring. Standard 4 colour RAF roundels with the red centre painted out maybe?

Thanks for the 'Dumbo' shots, I may have to build one of those in the future.

Regarding my question on the 'Leigh' light, squadron record transcripts from Rquirk say that they were removed from all of 203's liberators in December '44, therefore would not have been fitted when the sqn resumed combat operations in March '45.

Guess I'll have to save the light for a Catalina or Dumbo build

(Edited to correct typo.)

Edited December 14, 2015 by bull-nut

[Nick Millman]

Little update, I've found this image in a book that claims to be an ex 203 sqn aircraft. I know the 'G' suffix indicates that the aircraft was to be under constant guard, but would this apply to all H2X equipped aircraft, or would there be another reason?

Edit: Also, this is the only image I have found claiming to be of a 203 bird that shows any black fin markings, would the ground crew have painted them out for some reason or could they be a Post war addition? Rquirk does not list KH342 as belonging to 203sqn.

Those look like the SEAC identification bands introduced for all aircraft from January 1945 which were not supposed to be applied to four-engined aircraft or night fighters or to extend onto rudders, elevators and ailerons. They were supposed to be blue on uncamouflaged aircraft as were numbers and codes.

Note the fin flash has a dividing segment and therefore might be red and blue with the red incorrectly to the rear. In the photos Tony has posted the same tonal oddity can be seen. Unless the forward red is photographing dark and the rear blue is faded. If the colours are the two SEAC blues then again the lighter blue ought to be forward.

Some SEAC Libs retained outer yellow rings on the fuselage roundels as shown in one of the profiles above.

Nick

[Byron Boyd]

I just saw this one on ebay.co.uk. Considering that you will pay around 30 pounds anyway, this might be a viable option, unless your Customs really socks it to you:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hasegawa-Aircraft-Model-1-72-F-7A-Liberator-20th-Combat-Squadron-02114-H2114-/252099080870?hash=item3ab246b2a6:g:wUkAAOSwMmBVslrH

It's a 'buy it now', and contains all the parts you will need to build a standard -J.

HTH

Byron

[JWM]

Those photos of Mk V in SEAC are very rare, especially with radar nose I see for the first time at all. Thank you Tony for sharing. Serial is not seen - is it known by chance? The camo looks like only EDSG from top?

Cheers

J-W

[Graham Boak]

The top photo of FL945 shows two colours on the top. The lower photos show a higher demarcation, so could be the single EDSG top. I've done a quick scan through Oughton's book, and whereas many if not all of those with this slightly lower demarcation still have two colours (including KG and KH serials), this is much less clear on those with the highest demarcation.

[bull-nut]

Nick. I hadn't noticed the tonal variance in the fin flash, though I can see it now. As you say, the same difference in visible on the 'H' aircraft, maybe just painting out of the red portion of the roundel, but leaving the fin flash as is? or maybe the shots were taken before the painting was finished.

Byron. Thanks for the Ebay link. Though I've already taken delivery of a 'dragon and his tail' boxing of the academy/minicraft kit that will serve as the base, and the decals, less the aircraft codes, but including a good selection of airframe stencils, should be here in a few days from Airfix (it was cheaper than buying multiple aftermarket sheets, most of which I will be unlikely to ever use).

Graham. Thanks for the additional confirmation re the two tone uppers on KG serial aircraft, makes me a little more sure that I can get it mostly right.

By the way, if anyone wants the Dragon and Tail decals, drop me a PM and I'll see what I can do as I'll never use them. I've only given them a cursory look, but they seem ok.

[occa]

In that photo to me it looks like they overpainted the red portion of the flash with the same black paint they made the stripe with.

Most likely it was red before that

[AmazadhK]

Apologies to reboot an old topic, but only just seen this, and very interested to see mention of FL945, which is an aircraft my father flew in in 1943, but that was with 160 squadron at Ratmalan and Sigirya on Ceylon.  I can't see the pictures, because of the dreadful photobucket issue!  Is it possible for someone to repost those pictures if they are still available.  I'm going to build a model of that particular aircraft as a tribute to my dad, who is no longer with us.