Temperate Sea Scheme Help

[SUNDON]

I'm looking for some paint to reproduce a Temperate Sea Scheme on a Eduard Hellcat and would appreciate any help .After looking at the kits instructions and there GUNZE Aqueous/Mr Color recommendations I am considering using Hannants Xtracrylix paints as a replacement. Any advise would be a real bonus. The only other paint that is readily available to me are Tamiya and Revell Aqua.

Thanks

Martin

[Steven Eisenman]

Xtraceylics makes all the colors (IIRC)

Extra Dark Sea Grey

Dark Slate Grey

Sky.

You can do a Tamiya Mix:

Roy Sutherland's Mixes:

FAA Extra Dark Sea Grey:- To 50 parts of XF24 (dark grey), add 6 parts XF2 (white), and 3 parts XF8 (flat blue).

FAA Dark Slate Grey:- To one bottle of XF22 (RLM Grey), add 35 drops of XF7 (red), and 125 drops of XF1 (flat black).

Sky: 1.5 parts Tamiya XF-2 White to 1 part XF-21 Sky.

[expositor]

sundon, steve is right; however many researchers would add that grumman would have used american paints, and as they were primarily a usn contractor, ana paint compatible with usn camou schemes. you could use dark gull grey for the edsg, and medium green fs 34102. grumman supposedly used ana-sky only for the hellcat undersides, unlike the corsairs where light grey or light gull grey could have been used.

the ana-mos agreement normally called for olive drab and sea grey ana-603, which could either be the older aaf neutral grey, or a darker grey

fs 36118. i know i've opened a can of worms here, but no us mfg'er used british-made paint; all the us paint mfg's made their own as close as

possible to british standards, since britain needed all of its paint for its mfg's, and those liberty ships came back to the usa empty....

[Steven Eisenman]

sundon, steve is right; however many researchers would add that grumman would have used american paints, and as they were primarily a usn contractor, ana paint compatible with usn camou schemes. you could use dark gull grey for the edsg, and medium green fs 34102. grumman supposedly used ana-sky only for the hellcat undersides, unlike the corsairs where light grey or light gull grey could have been used.

the ana-mos agreement normally called for olive drab and sea grey ana-603, which could either be the older aaf neutral grey, or a darker grey

fs 36118. i know i've opened a can of worms here, but no us mfg'er used british-made paint; all the us paint mfg's made their own as close as

possible to british standards, since britain needed all of its paint for its mfg's, and those liberty ships came back to the usa empty....

Grumman did not use substitute paints. They attempted to match FAA colors.

Vought and Republic used the ANA substitute colors.

[expositor]

Grumman did not use substitute paints. They attempted to match FAA colors.

Vought and Republic used the ANA substitute colors

with all due respect, grumman built planes, they didn't make paint, and britain didn't sell their badly needed paint here. so, that leaves du pont, benjamin moore, and the rest here in the usa to make paint to match the various ana color cards the us gov't provided. within those colors were some that were either mixed special, or matched 'exactly' the british mos colors, like sky, middle stone, and azure blue, and the rest which were the aaf and usn colors which were 'close enough for gov't work' to the raf-faa colors as to be acceptable to the mos. du pont had an entire range of camou paint, most of which had not been accepted by the us armed services until 1941 or later.

that said, there were among those colors close enough to the mos standards, at least five or six colors which would have been applied by the various us constructors to planes destined for the raf and faa; ana 602 light grey (the overall usn light grey used on the buffalo and wildcat) for medium sea grey, ana 603 sea grey (the aaf underside neutral grey, though some have tied it to later fs 36118 [with some justification looking at some color photos of early lend-lease corsairs]) for raf ocean grey and faa edsg, ana 612 medium green (the dark green used on the leading edges of flying surfaces of some olive drab us fighters and bombers) which turned out to be too green and probably wasn't used for the mos, ana 613 olive drab, the mos-accepted direct replacement for raf dk green and faa dark slate grey, ana 620 light gull grey(the usn replacement for 602 light grey used by usn contractors like grumman) also very close to medium sea grey, ana 621 dark gull grey (a new usn color replacement for 603 sea grey in the usn anti-sub scheme) very close to dsg and a relatively non-fading replacement for edsg, and ana 624 medium green (believed to be the pre-war light olive drab rejected by the aaf, but later used by the navy for anti-glare on aluminum-painted craft) which grumman used on its later faa lend-lease aircraft for dark slate grey.

there are many opinions on these colors, but this is what i've gleaned from varied writings on the subject, by individuals much more knowledgeable than me. some would say that my citing ana 624 is wrong because it wasn't officially added to the list until 1945, but reading many authors one can

conclude that many colors not accepted by the services until after 1941 were already in production, or already in development, and the addition that late to the list merely confirmed what was already being used in warplane production. also, we have some color photos of grumman lend-lease aircraft, even allowing for color shifts, that indicate they were not using olive drab and sea grey in their faa camouflage for the hellcat. for the wildcat, especially the first batch of g-36's, they definitely used olive drab, but not ana 613; they used the older gloss o/d of the aac before it was ana 504, with a very dark gloss grey, not ana 603, that looks like engine grey, before it was ana 513, now fs 16081.

i could be faulted for my color interpretations, but i list them here to make a point that the british were happy to get complete, painted aircraft their depots could just assemble and get into the air without waiting for paint to dry, and accepted the varous aircraft with an assortment of colors close to mos standards. in their desperation to acquire planes, they weren't going to complain too much, especially since the us paint mfg's made the great efforts they did to accomodate the camou requirements of the raf and faa.

hope i didn't 'protest too much' here and rile any feathers; i wish to make friends and have congenial and lively conversation....even if everyone else is wrong....

just kidding!!! thanks all for indulging my rambling 'big mouth.'

cheerio!

[LDSModeller]

Hi Expositor

I believe what Steven was commenting on, was the fact that Grumman though building the

aircraft, organised to be supplied with paint from US manufacturers, that replicated the

FAA requirements as close as possible.

Later on, further lend Lease/purchased aircraft were painted in "Equivalent" colours which

included Dupont etc.

Earlier Purchased RAF aircraft eg Brewster Buffalo etc, were also painted in US Equivalent colors which

the MAP (Ministry Aircraft Procurement) had deemed acceptable equivalents to the Air Ministry's

requirements. These "Equivalents" had been worked out with the various US aircraft manufacturers when

the orders were placed.

Though not "exact" (or close to exact as possible) matches as in Grummans case, they were matched as close to

as possible to the paints used in the UK so when aircraft were repainted after repairs etc the US/UK paints were

quite similar in hues/colours etc.

Regards

Alan

[davidelvy]

Expositor.

I have been trying to read your posts, which are on a subject I find interesting. However I am having difficulty because of the lack of capital letters. Now I don't mean to be an old stick in the mud, but using "FAA" and "MOS" instead of "faa" and "mos" and beginning each sentence with a capital letter would make your posts much easier to read.

Please?

Edited October 12, 2010 by davidelvy

[stevehnz]

I hope this does not seem as a thread hijack as its on the same broad subject, but what in the Humbrol range is considered the best match for DSG/EDSG? #224 is listed as Dark Slate Grey but is nowhere near the old authentic colour HB8 which to me looked about right. A couple of Humbrol to Authentic Colours cross ref pages I've seen list #102 Army green as an equivalent to HB8, whereas Extra Dark Sea Grey, listed as #123 is often cross referenced with the nearest to HB7 as being #125 US dark grey. Sorry to butt in like that Martin. Hopefully to settle this question might also aid you in searching for equivalents in Tamiya or Revell.

Steve.

Edited October 12, 2010 by stevehnz

[Steven Eisenman]

Just a note on word usage.

In previous discussions "equivalent" meant colors which were mixed to be close to the British colors, such as used by Grumman. These were most commonly the du Pont paints, although other US manufacturers were also producing the paints.

Where US paints, such as the ANA colors, were used these were "substitute" colors. This was done by Republic on the P-47.

[Seahawk]

Grumman did not use substitute paints. They attempted to match FAA colors.

Yes. Talking of "individuals much more knowledgeable than me", I remember a letter from the late Geoff Thomas in an IPMS magazine in which he formally corrected his earlier statements in his Aircraft Modelworld that Grumman had used ANA substitute colours. He did this on the basis of a Grumman painting diagram (No. 303) for FAA Hellcats he'd discovered, which talks only of "British Camouflage Extra Dark Sea Gray", "British Camouflage Dark Slate Gray" and "British Camouflage Sky Type 'S'". If you're interested, it's reproduced on page 261 of his book "Eyes for The Phoenix". And to my eyes at least the few colour pictures of Hellcats and Wildcats bear this out.

[expositor]

hi steve, lds, seahawk, and david;

you gents kindly explained in just a few words what i blathered about for two long paragraphs; the equivalent colors as opposed to the substitute colors. had i recalled those terms....and sorry david, i just started typing and am in the habit of no caps as they were originally regarded as 'e-shouting,' no? actually i thought the proper punctuation to be sufficient, but you're right, the acronyms are more understandable if in caps....old

habits die hard for old fools; i'll have to try with my next post....

cheerio,

jim

[Chuck1945]

...am in the habit of no caps as they were originally regarded as 'e-shouting,...'

FWIW All caps is sometimes considered shouting, but caps for correct sentence form is definitely acceptable.

[expositor]

FWIW All caps is sometimes considered shouting, but caps for correct sentence form is definitely acceptable.

it figures i got that wrong too....

Edited October 12, 2010 by expositor

[Edgar]

With the Air Ministry issuing colour samples and booklets, left and right, over here, it's difficult to believe that they wouldn't have sent some to the purchasing commission, in the U.S., for onward transmission to paint manufacturers.

Edgar

[SUNDON]

Looks like the Hannants Xtracrylix paints then

Thanks everyone

Martin