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English Roundel 'Dull Red'


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Hi,

referring to mention of Methuen 8D7 in post #17 a screen match in photoshop visually to Methuen 8D7 is this,(screen s are backlit so its not possible to totally match but I eyeball this then the book with a grey card and hole cut in it over the colour then this again and adjust hue sat and light and other goodies, until generally happy, on a colou calibrated screen and calibrated photoshop in RGB mode ! if your screen isnt as such them you might see a bit different, it is amazing how it matches the whitley lower down found after doing this :-

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It s not the red I am seeing in many photos in this useful site

www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/382/Roundel-Round-Up.aspx

 

but could well be the red on the side of the whitley in this photo :-

spacer.png

 

notice that blue, somewhat more 'blue' than almost all my decals sheets for later war roundels ! Its the blue I was understanding to be so on 1940 aircraft along with a bright red.

 

Merlin

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Hey 487 squadron 

 If you want to use Acrylic paints Vallejo has the colors you need in there model air line.

AV71080 - rust/ or roundel red.

AV71091 - signal blue/ or roundel blue.

AV71033 - trainer yellow for the band on the fuselage roundels.

These are the colors I'm using on my 1/24 Mosquito that I will be painting with Makater masks. I have color matched these to the RAF museum book with the paint chips on the back.

Ron G 

 

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6 hours ago, Crankycraftsman said:

Hey 487 squadron 

 If you want to use Acrylic paints Vallejo has the colors you need in there model air line.

AV71080 - rust/ or roundel red.

AV71091 - signal blue/ or roundel blue.

AV71033 - trainer yellow for the band on the fuselage roundels.

These are the colors I'm using on my 1/24 Mosquito that I will be painting with Makater masks. I have color matched these to the RAF museum book with the paint chips on the back.

Ron G 

 

Good to see that there are good acrylic matches for these colours. I used the white ensign enamels recommend earlier, and they took days to dry. Note all but the last two posts in this thread are from 2010.

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11 hours ago, Merlin said:

Its the blue I was understanding to be so on 1940 aircraft along with a bright red.

 

 

this one comes around every so often.  

AFAIK, the dull wartime colours were pre war,  and the while there is reference to the use of the brighter colours, (Gloster apparently used the brighter colours into 1940 on Hurricanes)

60a836afc4a0cd6395f6a88bb4b409c3.jpg&key

Note the wing roundel on the photographer's plane, pale and flaking off, compared to LK-A,  perhaps an example of Gloster's reputed use of bright pre war red and blue?  
Heavy paint chipping is also noted on some of the first batch of Gloster built Hurricane's as well

 

this was not what was stipulated. 

 

The few colour shots from the era do not show the bright colours



19 sq Spitfires spring 1940, note wing roundel in foreground
5605745796_e44ab0dd13_z.jpg

 

"August 15th 1940 at 1815hrs: Cherbourg. Spitfire N3277. Mk.Ia AZ-H of 234 Squadron Middle Wallop

Pilot Officer Richard Hardy was shot down by Oblt. Georg Claus from III/JG 53, after combat over the Channel, off Swanage.

P.O. Hardy made a forced landing on a beach near Cherbourg, was taken prisoner and became a POW for the duration."

note roundel blue
4871667320_9c927dbabe_z.jpg

Spitfire II April 1941.
Well known image of a 72 Sqn. Spittie from Alckington over the coast.
5480779565_08b3c5c056_z.jpg



from the famous Life photo shoot, late spring 1941
3052829500_b0b527c484_z.jpg


Spitfire pre war
2527521628_b66bedd8c5_z.jpg



burnt out Hurricane I



Hurricane pre war, repainted roundels post munich crisis
2527541716_722f54a43f_b.jpg

Hurricane from late may or early june 1940
601-2.jpg&key=ce0b0514ef9e3cbdf55b53dbcf

 

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3 hours ago, ben_m said:

I used the white ensign enamels recommend earlier, and they took days to dry.

Been discussed before,  try adding some Terebene driers 

note next comment in next post about it being specified real WW2 paint

 

On 04/11/2017 at 13:41, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

Hi Troy,

 

I haven't actually tried terebine dryers in enamel paint but I can do and expect they will work well.

 

I have used them in recreating 1930s Royal Navy paint recipes to find out what the paint looked like. That was a classical linseed oil, turpentine and pigment powder recipe and a small quantity of terebine dryers was prescribed in the recipe so in it went. The linseed oil paint was touch dry in about 5 to 10 minutes like a matt enamel.

 

I'll give it a go on a full gloss enamel next opportunity and report back ...

 

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6 hours ago, ben_m said:

Good to see that there are good acrylic matches for these colours. I used the white ensign enamels recommend earlier, and they took days to dry. Note all but the last two posts in this thread are from 2010.

 

White Ensign Models didn't really do themselves (or me, by virtue of legacy belief) any favours in this respect because they chose not to market the best thinners and instead recommended white spirit which is probably the single worst way I could think of to thin enamel. As you noticed, it takes ages to dry and furthermore it absolutely stinks. This is a feature brought by bad thinner choice rather than the paint itself.

 

When thinned with a naptha based thinner which we have chosen to make available, the whole experience is drastically different. Many using these can now, like me, handle and unmask as soon as the airbrush is cleaned providing that the paint application is in multiple thin passes close-in using the airflow to blow-dry.

 

 

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Hi Troy,

aha...some of the photos I had found in the roundels link, that blue on the munich crisis hurri is definitely the later dark blue, however that shot of the heyford (?) and hurri together is a brighter blue and even a brighter red, the blue like in the whitley and paratroopers, the red on the tail flash of RN.N, tail flash a red brighter than fuselage roundel, even its Type B roundels is a blue compared to the later war blue, so different than the blue I have in Xtradecals sheet  x032-48 and their 1/72 version. They have a sheet x72226 featuring a brighter blue, same as on their prewar sheet x72111 which also has very bright red spots, I think too bright for the bright red variation used in the BoB, they also use that over bright red on their BoB generic sheet x72226. As said I studied wreckage P9374 Spitfire and the roundel red was definitely red and not the red oxide colour. As to telling from b/w images if it was red or the browny red , it will differ in greyscale value but not that different.

 

I am not seeing that reddish brown on the whitley which matched methuen 8D7 on those aircraft, I am seeing a red as such, not vivid but certainly a red, whitley is in sun, as is spitfire prewar, so arguments of the browny red shows as red in sun cant be used, thats red on that roundel of the prewar spit with the massive red centre, hurris and heyford red, not that brown, the heyford or whatever it is , is with red and a brighter blue as well,. I am convined the red and brighter blue saw some use on aircraft other than Gloster built ones. Where was P9374 built ?

 

I have just realised, the Spitfire in the Science Museum was placed straight in there from service, not repainted beforehand, as was I think also the Hurricane. Both have red as opposed to red oxide brown and a brighter blue. Story is in BoB Then and Now.

 

compare the model in post#85 of article below to the hurris and heyford, pic I would be happy with that hurricane model and its red and blue.

 

I also would be happy with the 'red' of post #78, thats yours Troy 🙂

 

Merlin

 

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45 minutes ago, Merlin said:

I have just realised, the Spitfire in the Science Museum was placed straight in there from service, not repainted beforehand, as was I think also the Hurricane. Both have red as opposed to red oxide brown and a brighter blue. Story is in BoB Then and Now.

Don't know about the Spitfire... I'll check.

OK, doubt it.

Quote

P9444 Ia 607 EA MIIIFF 2-4-40 RAE 23-5-40 control system trials 6MU 23-5-40 72S 4-6-40 airframe overstrained in dive after P/O Elliot passed out through lack of oxygen C3 crash-landed 3-7-40 1CRU ros 19-8-40 58OTU Cat B 5-5-41 72S markings extant Science Museum London [c/n 6S.30613]

was at an OTU and damaged.  The rest of the story must be known, but if repaired,  it's been repainted

 

Definitely not the Hurricane, was restored by Hawker in the 1950's.

 

L1592 served in Training Command,  seen here on display on Horse Guards Parade in 1950 

48954526578_83792e47f3_o.jpgHurricaneL1952in1950HorseGuardsparade-3 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

Standard Day Fighter Scheme.

 

49 minutes ago, Merlin said:

that blue on the munich crisis hurri is definitely the later dark blue, however that shot of the heyford (?) and hurri together is a brighter blue and even a brighter red, the blue like in the whitley and paratroopers, the red on the tail flash of RN.N, tail flash a red brighter than fuselage roundel, even its Type B roundels is a blue compared to the later war blue, so different than the blue I have in Xtradecals sheet  x032-48 and their 1/72 version.

 

the dark roundel blue can appear very dark, but well illuminated, it's blue.

note

https://www.sovereignhobbies.co.uk/products/acrn31-ww2-roundel-blue-oxford-blue-bs105?_pos=1&_sid=17633936a&_ss=r

WW2 Roundel Blue/Oxford Blue (BS105)

 

Oxford blue is still in the BS paint range.   

 

The WW2 colour also does bleach out in time, and upper wing tend to then fade more than fuselage...

 

you'll like this one

4674411354_639b017b2f_o.jpgSpitfire boneyard. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

this is the one I was thinking of

14780326836_c9727d9f2c_o.jpgRCAF Spitfire V,  1943. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

from https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=spitfire

 

If you change the last word on the address bar after = it's easy to search

eg

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=8270787@N07&q=lancaster

 

8415266735_a70aae0959_o.jpgTouching up        July 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

 

of interest as you can see method of application, 2 inch brush ? 

Note the fin flash is quite bright in full sun compared to the upperwings, 

17684693261_8b32369a7b_o.jpgLancasters at Swinderby, 1942. by Etienne du Plessis, on Flickr

also note the greater fading of the ailerons and the typical exhaust pattern

 

Have a look through the links, and look up some other types,  there is a mass of information there.

@Etiennedup is a member here as well.

 

 

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I think you are placing too much reliance on the variation seen in individual photos.  Remember all the different possibilities of age, lighting, filter, film, processing, printing, scanning, electronic transfer, monitor accuracy...  The original paint will have come from different batches made in different factories by different companies with possibly different pigments, and then applied by individuals of differing skills in differing circumstances.  If we see differing hues in these photos then it is not something to be surprised at nor foundation for conspiracy theories.   Small variation in hues, even in high quality reproductions, is only to be expected.  It may or may not be an accurate guide to the precise colour as was.

 

Which doesn't touch on the unreliability of museum examples... Even those done with the very best intentions.  As for digs, I have yet to see a report that mentions the acidity/alkilinity of the soil and the possible effects of this on the paints.

 

As modellers we have to go with what information we have got, however limited, though some thought and analysis is often useful even (particularly ?) when it challenges established opinions. But in the end there was not a infinite spectrum of reds available to the aircraft painter.  He couldn't pop down to the local hardware shop and stock up with the odd tin of Dulux.  The colours were (within limits, as mentioned above) what came in the tin from the stores from the MU from the manufacturer, created to the AM specification.

 

Then there is the matter of overseas production and service, and just who was providing the paint there, but that is expanding the theme too far for this thread.

 

PS. I see that I haven't raised the matter of undercoats.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

PS. I see that I haven't raised the matter of undercoats.

 

which is a good matter to raise. We must all be aware from personal experience that unless you apply 100 coats, painting any red directly to a Night base coat is going to look very different from applying the same paint over white, or red primer

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Lovely pics.

 

Spitfire AN.L has two different blues both facing sideways as opposed to upwards where light reflection could make differences. I always find when photographing charts that those on a table look lighter than those on a door. ( I use incident light meter readings, not auto mode at chart, both using a luminos light disc then checking with a Kodak Grey card held vertical) the other AN coded spit has same blue on fuselage and fin. AN.L has same blue on fin as on wing I would say, but that blue on the roundel as far as I am concerned is from the prewar blue paint.

 

I am seeing again and again a brighter red on the finflash than on the roundel, in these and previosu pics in the roundels link, both face same direction so a different direction and effect of sun cant be the cause.

 

Note the two fin flashes on the Lanc at Swinderby, port is a brighter blue than stbd, both facing same direction. Note also the lower contrast and more yellowy green, blue is a pigment that fades first so I was told by a friend many years ago who studied camouflage colours, so it leaves a more yellowy green. The dark earth certainly isnt the earth on the floor there ! again brown is red and green, green is yellow and blue, so remove the blue a bit and a more yellowy colour results. Am I right ?

 

Merlin

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12 minutes ago, Merlin said:

AN.L has same blue on fin as on wing I would say, but that blue on the roundel as far as I am concerned is from the prewar blue paint.

I'd say no.  Does not make sense.   Why is appears so different, I can't say, but for it to be a different blue,  no.  

One possibility, the tail has been replaced and new vs faded paint? The transport joint is just behind the 'JG'  otherwise a trick of light/exposure , but not a different colour.

 

 

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I think you are placing too much reliance on the variation seen in individual photos.  Remember all the different possibilities of age, lighting, filter, film, processing, printing, scanning, electronic transfer, monitor accuracy...  The original paint will have come from different batches made in different factories by different companies with possibly different pigments, and then applied by individuals of differing skills in differing circumstances.  If we see differing hues in these photos then it is not something to be surprised at nor foundation for conspiracy theories.   Small variation in hues, even in high quality reproductions, is only to be expected.  It may or may not be an accurate guide to the precise colour as was.

one detail i did just notice

4674411354_639b017b2f_o.jpg

there is a what appear to be the primer coat visible on the removed wing root,  which looks like zinc chromate, or the yellow hawker used on Sea Fury's.

Also not the seat colour in the foreground.

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Hi,

the seat is natural fibre brown, as opposed to being painted, Mk1 spits had a metal seat painted in interior grey green and a cartridge flare rack along front edge. note the interior grey green visible on the seat rear frame and back armour, front edge brackets too small to really tell  but perhaps bare ally as is the seat handle from constant use.. Note the doped patches over gun ports, not the usual reddish dope but a darker blue than the roundel, I wonder what they used instead of red dope there ? the two outboard areas of 'brown' on the wing are a different lighter shade than the inboard one which appears same as the brown on the fuselage., why ?   I am not into desert a/c at all so is that dk earth on the fuselage as my RAF chart has no other brown of that colour ? As mentioned certainly a different red used for fin flash than roundel as noticed on some other a/c. Even the yellow leading edge wing strip is not exactly yellow !

 

Merlin

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5 minutes ago, Merlin said:

Note the doped patches over gun ports, not the usual reddish dope but a darker blue than the roundel, I wonder what they used instead of red dope there ?

erm, roundel blue... it's just newer paint

 

7 minutes ago, Merlin said:

the two outboard areas of 'brown' on the wing are a different lighter shade than the inboard one which appears same as the brown on the fuselage., why ?

 light source, wing curvature.

8 minutes ago, Merlin said:

I am not into desert a/c at all so is that dk earth on the fuselage as my RAF chart has no other brown of that colour ?

Dark Earth and Middlestone are the upper colours in the Desert scheme.

 

12 minutes ago, Merlin said:

As mentioned certainly a different red used for fin flash than roundel as noticed on some other a/c.

why? it's a standard marking, factory applied.   Why it appears as different shade  in the photo is something to ask a photographer, but while it looks different, I can see no reason why it should be a different red.

12 minutes ago, Merlin said:

 

Even the yellow leading edge wing strip is not exactly yellow

Looks to be overpainted, but not not done very well.

9 minutes ago, Merlin said:

the seat is natural fibre brown, as opposed to being painted, Mk1 spits had a metal seat painted in interior grey green and a cartridge flare rack along front edge.

Some Mk.I's have the fibre seat, and the metal ones could be black or aluminium IIRC. This has been discussed here in the past.

Note,  it's Mk.I not Mk1

 

HTH

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Hi,

that colour pics link is just awesome. MANY THANKS.

 

lots of RED roundels bright blues, oxide red and darker blues. and valuable colours on other items I am into.

 

Wing curvature on leading edge of that spitfire is same yet two very different colours, it is not accounting for the big difference over a few feet on the same curvature though.

 

That BLUE roundel is a different blue same direction it faces as fin flash, same lighting, .

 

I would be interested to see evidence of a Mk l Spit with fibre seat.

 

Few of the pics in the link exhibit a 'red oxide' colour, that colour goes more 'red' with the film in use or sun on it from what I am deducing, however there is RED and the red oxide spot going red, as two separate entities in the pics.

 

Crew at atil area whitley, that fin flash BLUE !!!!

 

must look through these pics more when get 5 mins, Telford is tugging at my time allowance !

 

Merlin

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