Curtiss P-36/Mohawk in RAF Service

[2996 Victor]

47 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

And it's going to be a mess again...

I hope not.....  

 

48 minutes ago, KRK4m said:

Please, don't mix up the Norwegian H75A-6s (14-cylinder P&W R-1830 Twin Wasp), built in 1939 and shipped to Europe (Norway, France, UK, and eventually also Germany and Finland ) with those H75A-8s (9-cylinder Wright R-1820 Cyclone), delivered in 1941, which never left America, because after serving in Canadian Little Norway through the USAAF (as P-36G) they ended up in Peru.

Interesting! I didn't realise Peru received any Hawks other than the ones with fixed undercarriage.

 

As I understand it, the Twin Wasp-engined versions had the more prominent cowling gun fairings. I'm primarily interested in the Cyclone-engined Mohawk IV received by the RAF and then passed on to the Portuguese air arm. Have you any idea what the interior colour of those aircraft might have been?

 

Cheers,

Mark

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear all;

Is there a reliable plan/drawing somewhere, showing the ammo hatches on the upper side of the wings, and the panelling/ejector openings on the underside? A friend is contemplating modifying a 1/48 Clear Prop Hawk 75 O/N to a Mohawk IV, by adding undercarriage and covers from a suitable Hawk (P36/-40) donor.

Frankly, he is underwhelmed by the detail level of the Hobbycraft kit, I tend to agree.

Or is he barking up the wrong tree, is there any major flaw in our thinking? Major dimensions? Shapes?

 

TIA

Tomas Enerdal & Pal

[2996 Victor]

1 minute ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Dear all;

Is there a reliable plan/drawing somewhere, showing the ammo hatches on the upper side of the wings, and the panelling/ejector openings on the underside? A friend is contemplating modifying a 1/48 Clear Prop Hawk 75 O/N to a Mohawk IV, by adding undercarriage and covers from a suitable Hawk (P36/-40) donor.

Frankly, he is underwhelmed by the detail level of the Hobbycraft kit, I tend to agree.

Or is he barking up the wrong tree, is there any major flaw in our thinking? Major dimensions? Shapes?

 

TIA

Tomas Enerdal & Pal

Hi Tomas,

 

I'm afraid I can't answer your question, but I did email ClearProp earlier this year to ask if they planned to do the P-36/Mohawk. The answer was a definite "yes" but they couldn't give any timescales.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[2996 Victor]

15 minutes ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Is there a reliable plan/drawing somewhere

I meant to add that there is a useful 3-part article in the old Air Enthusiast magazine that's worth seeking out for the photos and cutaway drawing:

Part 1 - Air Enthusiast November 1971, pp307-314

Part 2 - Air Enthusiast December 1972, pp374-378

Part 3 - Air Enthusiast January 1972, pp47-52

 

HTH,

Mark

[Tomas Enerdal]

Hmm,

May very well be worth waiting for. Let's just hope that all goes well for all the heroes in Ukraine, Slava Ukraini! (I'm still hoping for that Firebrand..)

We have begun looking for those issues of Air Enthusiast.

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Slava Ukraini!

Definitely! ❤️

 

4 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

We have begun looking for those issues of Air Enthusiast

If you have trouble finding them, I have spare loose issues that include those which you could either have or I could scan the appropriate pages for you. I'm sorry I didn't think of that last night - I was into my third glass of wine.....

 

Cheers,

Mark

[mick b]

Here’s another reference worth a look:

 

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/squadrons-no-17-the-curtiss-mohawk/

 

Mike

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thanks!

Mike; Squadrons book ordered.

Mark, see PM.

 

Let's hope that the Mohawk I-IV gets the Wingleader treatment. References are a bit thin.. 

Edited September 16, 2023 by Tomas Enerdal

[2996 Victor]

4 hours ago, mick b said:

Here’s another reference worth a look:

 

https://www.raf-in-combat.com/downloads/squadrons-no-17-the-curtiss-mohawk/

 

Mike

I've got this as well - very good and useful.

[dragonlanceHR]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:15 PM, Tomas Enerdal said:

Dear all;

Is there a reliable plan/drawing somewhere, showing the ammo hatches on the upper side of the wings, and the panelling/ejector openings on the underside? A friend is contemplating modifying a 1/48 Clear Prop Hawk 75 O/N to a Mohawk IV, by adding undercarriage and covers from a suitable Hawk (P36/-40) donor.

Frankly, he is underwhelmed by the detail level of the Hobbycraft kit, I tend to agree.

Or is he barking up the wrong tree, is there any major flaw in our thinking? Major dimensions? Shapes?

 

TIA

Tomas Enerdal & Pal

 

Only thing to worry about, apart of the correct engine gearbox, is to check if the H-75O/N has the prop line in the right height. IIRC from the discussions prior to the release of the Airfix P-40B, fixed landing gear Hawks had the engine mouted somewhat lower. But there are two generations of fixed-gear H-75's.

Gun panels on the wings are similar/same to P-40B.

 

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by dragonlanceHR

[dragonlanceHR]

On 9/16/2023 at 4:04 PM, Tomas Enerdal said:

Let's hope that the Mohawk I-IV gets the Wingleader treatment. References are a bit thin.. 

I have both the Beauchamp&Cuny and Hagedorn&Tincopa books and while they represent a lot of (pioneering) work, they leave the modeller with several unanswered questions.

But who is qualified to author a WingLeader style book regarding the Hawk 75?

[Mike Starmer]

Bowyer was quite specific about early under surface colours.  The duck-egg-green he noted in his contemporary account was different to the paler Sky colours he saw later.   He was referring to the substitute for Sky, which was probably a unit mix or Eau de Nil  from BS.381C 1930 book. 

[MDriskill]

Fantastic drawings and notes of the entire P-36 and P-40 "family" (Curtiss H-75, H-81, and H-87) by master modeler Jumpei Temma, are here:

 

http://soyuyo.main.jp/p40b/p40be-1.html

 

Mr. Temma did these as an adjunct to his build of the 1/48 scale Airfix P-40B. They are in PNG format, and as with all his drawings free to download and print. To my eye the best drawings of these aircraft ever published, and maybe the first good ones of the Cyclone-engined H-75 (but note a few details even he couldn't figure out, as described in his notes).

Edited October 3, 2023 by MDriskill

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thank you so very much! We have completely forgotten to check mr Temma’s drawings. Just what the doc ordinated!

[Tomas Enerdal]

Dear dragonlanceHR,

you mention the Hagedorn & Tincopa book, I’ve been looking for it, but it’s OOP, and as such immediately gets collector prices on the net..

I’ve noted that there are quite some variation in cockpit interiors, does the book have any detailed information about RAF Mohawk IV in this regard?

There doesn’t seem to have been any pilot’s notes printed either. 

[dragonlanceHR]

4 hours ago, Tomas Enerdal said:

Dear dragonlanceHR,

you mention the Hagedorn & Tincopa book, I’ve been looking for it, but it’s OOP, and as such immediately gets collector prices on the net..

I’ve noted that there are quite some variation in cockpit interiors, does the book have any detailed information about RAF Mohawk IV in this regard?

There doesn’t seem to have been any pilot’s notes printed either. 

 

I'll try to check it out today/tomorrow at the latest. If I forget, shoot me a PM.

[MDriskill]

While excellent, the big Hagedorn / Tincopa book focuses more on history than modeling. It has many rare photos and some fine color profiles, but does not include any detailed color discussions, general arrangement drawings beyond vintage factory diagrams, comprehensive interior or "walkaround" shots, etc.

 

The authors take pains to cite these two books as worthy, well-researched adjuncts:

 

And for what it's worth, Dana Bell's superb book on the early P-40 series has this note on cockpit colors:

Edited October 2, 2023 by MDriskill

[dragonlanceHR]

As MrDriskill wrote, and I mention above, the Hagedorn/Tincopa book is not modeller friendly. No photo of Mohawk IV cockpit, and only a mention that the instruments were left in metric.

But the old Docavia has photos of French H-75A4 cockpit (albeit with some placards in German as it is an captured example), and mentions that GM-2 gunsight was installed on Mohawk IV so send me your e-mail address Tomas Enerdal.

 

The Mushroom book has only the photos of H-75A2 cockpit.

[MDriskill]

This 1941 series of color photos from Life magazine is a great general look at Curtiss interior colors, including the cockpit yellow-green mentioned in Mr. Bell's caption above. It's mostly early P-40's (and a few O-52's), and no detailed cockpit shots, but some top quality stuff.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/35963591@N00/sets/72157622864527612/with/4128889395

 

Edited October 3, 2023 by MDriskill

[2996 Victor]

Thank you, @MDriskill and @dragonlanceHR, that's very interesting. I searched long and hard for the Hagedorn/Tincopa book without success, other than for very silly money, and in the end gave it up as a bad lot. Good to know that from a modeller's standpoint, there are other publications that in some ways are much more informative! Much appreciated.

 

Cheers,

Mark

[dragonlanceHR]

Yes. A good modellers book on P-36/H-75 is still due. I had hopes for Dana Bell but he seems to have abandoned the Aircraft Pictorial line.

Edited October 2, 2023 by dragonlanceHR

[BS_w]

baille lemaire GH 38 gunsight on A1 to A3 and below, british gunsight on A4

 

 

Instruments panels A1, A2, A3 & A4 french Hawk (pic from EMM of each models)

[BS_w]

"yellow green" interior french Hawk N° 223(?) , firewall to frame 3

this primer was common to "Export Hawk" (spec Curtiss S-517)

 

yellow green was applied over  prussian blue Lionoil shop coat.(which prevent scratches on surface of Alclad Skin).

 

 

[MDriskill]

BS_w: GREAT INFO, THANK YOU!

 

As an aside, the Lionoil varnish (prominent throughout the LIFE magazine photos) also served to highlight scribed or grease-pencil marks, for drilling or cutting the metal sheets. One of the LIFE shots shows technicians with a classic "blueprint" drawing sheet (this old architect remembers those well 😀) - note the similarity of the Prussian Blue color.

 

Such coatings were common in WW2 aircraft production, and many sheet metal fabrications use similar processes to this day.

Edited October 3, 2023 by MDriskill

[Tomas Enerdal]

Thanks for the great info! Those canvas anti-glare shields are interesting.

I'm sure this is a breach of copyright, but I cannot help myself, from Mohawks over Burma/Beauchamp (the book is almost 40 years old):

This pic is so full of modelling info!

-Sight, with anti-glare disk

-External armored glass over curved windscreen

-Sutton harness on pilot

-External ring- and bead sight, off-set to stb.