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FAA F4u-1a Corsair, questions, questions ,questions ...


Gordon Parker
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On 9/6/2021 at 5:23 PM, Gordon Parker said:

Thanks Jack I think that has sorted out the roundel iussue for me. 

And Troy I did include the serial number. It is JT 410. Thanks very much for adding links to the experts.

Still unclear as to flight suit, tyres and interior colours.

and Dov, is there a place I can check out FAA requirements?


Tires could have been either smooth or diamond tread, I have hundreds of photos of FAA Corsairs with either or.

 

I have a lot of flight suit images too.

 

 

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On 9/7/2021 at 8:59 AM, nicholas mayhew said:

i still cannot believe Barracuda- or anyone else - has not done either a resin or (the way things are moving) a 3D printed parts conversion for the Tamiya kit in 1/32

 

so frustrating to have scratchbuild wing tips and scoops on a £100 kit and potentially balls it up

 

on pretty much every conversion i have seen the home made scoops look pretty meh


Tamiya is supposed to release a FAA version. There were given access to Vintage Wings Corsair during their deign of the kit and a handshake agreement was made that they’d release a FAA option. There is some evidence of this in the metal etch, Sutton harnesses are on it.

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1 hour ago, Scooby said:


Tamiya is supposed to release a FAA version. There were given access to Vintage Wings Corsair during their deign of the kit and a handshake agreement was made that they’d release a FAA option. There is some evidence of this in the metal etch, Sutton harnesses are on it.

Hi Scooby,

Well that would be something and probaly just as I finish mine they will announce a FAA version. On the bright side it could be a Corsair IV with markings for Robert Hampton Gray'VC, so I would have to get one anyway. On the downside I would still have to replace the Photo etch seat belts- Tamiyas are like working with armour plate and Tamiya decals are just plain welllll ... awful, and I hate rubber tires, really really hate them. Have to hope Barracuda designs continue to prosper and that HGW keeps making seatbelts.

 

And thanks for your other posts too. The fun dekals instructions are quite nice but unless I get paint chips in my hands or reference numbers I can compare to material I have I am likely to go with my best guess averages using Dana's info and my own BS. At least if I stick to one paint brand, in this case Vallejo Model Air, weather and fade them to the point of confusion the colour ranges should look okay.

Cheers,

Gord

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Hi All,

The penny almost dropped on my colour conundrumumums.

Thanks to Scoob I took another and closer look at the Fun Dekals instructions (obviously they want people to pronounce their name correctly - Deh Kull) which I at first discounted as online colour chips aren't much help to me. But then I realised they included ANA numbers which led me to do some digging:

Cyber Modeller publishes an ANA Color chart with paint equivalencies!

The Vallejo colour matches are:

ANA 603 Sea Gray is 71.097 which looks pretty good 😉

ANA 610 Olive Drab is 71.106 which also looks good 🙂

ANA 613 Sky is 71.103 which is RLM84 and that doesn't seem right at all. The other option is Mr Color C368 which is RAF Sky, quite a wide variance you will agree, So boo to that. No listing for AK, and of course Tamiya don't make it, so grrrrr. {-(

 

But wait! Theres more!

These are Dupont colors. So I looked for those references and the underside colour is and or should be, DuPont 71-021 Curtis Sky-Type S Grey (notice how I switch back and forth between US and Canadian spelling where appropriate? Clever ain't I?)

Now Vallejo have a colour chart that references Dupont 71-021 which as I think I know is Curtis Sky Type S Grey and their color equivalent is 71.296, USAAFLight Gray FS36622 mmmaaaaybe. 

I will have to make some colour chips and let them fall where they may.

So far, Dana's suggestion of FS 34424 "ish" which is Vallejo 71.321 IJN light Gray Green and some Grey "ish" and still looks like the front runner, I will use a gray that will make 34424 warmer which will thus better match the hues in the photos of the Corsair II's.

Good grief what a rabbit hole!

Cheers,

Gord

 

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3 hours ago, Scooby said:


Tires could have been either smooth or diamond tread, I have hundreds of photos of FAA Corsairs with either or.

 

I have a lot of flight suit images too.

 

 

Hi Scooby,

Any images you care to share would be greatly appreciated.

cheers,

Gord

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Hi Guys and Gals,

So, what I have been calling handholds high on the fuselage sides aft of the cockpit on the Tamiya kit turn out to be small intakes, apparently factory added to later models and would not be present on earlier models. I did find a reference somewhere but seem to have misfiled it. Bugger.

I will definitely be filling those.

Cheers,

Gord

 

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I agree, adding some grey to your preferred Sky paint is the way forward with ANA 610.

 

Cybermodeler site has a lot of colour info, but the problem is they don't illustrate how well a particular hobby paint brand matches up.  For any particular colour you are looking for, the hobby paint columns all have the same digital value straight across.   As far as I'm aware, the only WW2 ANA  paint chart made available to the public was from Monogram, which Cybermodeler do include in their bibliography of sources.  Their British reference though is not the Museum Aviation book often quoted here, but some online modern charts?  Digitally I find their Sky duller compared to said book chart, as well as the studies compiled by Nick Millman.  As a result their Sky is slightly darker than ANA 610.

 

The colour photos posted earlier of Corsairs are suppose to be from Naval Air Station Brunswick, Maine 1943.  I think maybe from an American photographer as well?   So that could mean Kodachrome film and whatever peculiarities it had with colour.  One other photo from that set, maybe this one:

 

f4u_13.jpg

 

Too bad about the staining on the undersides as it hides the nature of colour.  General impression though is it looks be a grey green.

 

regards,

Jack

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19 hours ago, Gordon Parker said:

Now Vallejo have a colour chart that references Dupont 71-021 which as I think I know is Curtis Sky Type S Grey and their color equivalent is 71.296, USAAFLight Gray FS36622 mmmaaaaybe. 

 

DuPont 71-021 is a Duck Egg Blue colour, and the Grey suffix, I believe has

more to deal with its manufacturing than colour (which is not a grey of any type)

 

Swatch for WWII DuPont colours, lower colour is DuPont 71-021 Sky Type S - Grey

59516d96-77b6-4750-976e-fd05c4da1db3.jpg

 

Regards

 

Alan

 

 

 

Edited by LDSModeller
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3 hours ago, JackG said:

I agree, adding some grey to your preferred Sky paint is the way forward with ANA 610.

Cybermodeler site has a lot of colour info, but the problem is they don't illustrate how well a particular hobby paint brand matches up. 

 

Too bad about the staining on the undersides as it hides the nature of colour.  General impression though is it looks be a grey green.

 

regards,

Jack

Hi Jack,

Thanks for this. 

I never did manage to find a copy of the ANA book. Cyber model made an attempt but it seems to me they didn't even check their own matches, from grey blue to just plain old RAF sky shows a lack or editing don't you think? 

I was looking at photos I have of RCAF Kittyhawks (including Son of Lassie for the 8 minuttes of flying from Pat Bay) and even then there seems to be a wide range of colours used, from a kinda blue grey through to sky blues. Bridgewater suggest FS595b 36463 for the Sky undersides of RAF/RCAF Kittyhawks which is a light, warm grey and matches quite well for the Pat Bay Kitty's in "Son of Lassie"

Apparently an original AVG P-40 wing exists and of course those were diverted from an RAF order so it provides a clue as long as you are convinced that 80 yr old paint doesn't change colour at all. I have the same issue with 80 year old photos as well.

So if that works for the Curtis, would it also be the same for FAA aircraft? Maybe? Wartime photos show two very different colours, with the Kitty's being very much grey er in tone.

My best guess at this point is a very grey, slightly green tinged on the warm end of the hue range. So 34424 with lots of grey or grey wiht a bit of IJN green. Will have to experiment.

I think the photos are kodachromes as well. The warmed tones of the colours are pretty typical. Pretty sure it wasn't Fujifilm of AGFA anyway!

As usual, my sincere thanks Jack

Cheers,

Gord

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2 hours ago, LDSModeller said:

 

DuPont 71-021 is a Duck Egg Blue colour, and the Grey suffix, I believe has

more to deal with its manufacturing than colour (which is not a grey of any type)

Regards

Alan

 

 

 

Hi Alan,

Thanks foir this. May I ask what is the source for your swatches? The colour you show sure seems to agree with what I am thinking for the Dupont 71-021 as used on FAA Corsairs. However it is at some variance with RAF/RCAF Kittyhawks underside colours that I have seen and that is also reputed to be 71-021.

Thanks,

Gord

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1 minute ago, Gordon Parker said:

May I ask what is the source for your swatches? The colour you show sure seems to agree with what I am thinking for the Dupont 71-021 as used on FAA Corsairs. However it is at some variance with RAF/RCAF Kittyhawks underside colours that I have seen and that is also reputed to be 71-021.

 

HI Gordon,

 

My Swatches are off an WWII RNZAF P40E-1 - NZ3031 (RAF Order - Serial ET770) that arrived circa early - mid

1941, and crashed beginning May 1943

I have seen two other RNZAF 40E-1's, one pretty much a whole airframe that had been kept under

wraps for some 60-70 years, and the colours are pretty much the same for top and bottom as my swatches

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

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1 minute ago, LDSModeller said:

 

HI Gordon,

 

My Swatches are off an WWII RNZAF P40E-1 - NZ3031 (RAF Order - Serial ET770) that arrived circa early - mid

1941, and crashed beginning May 1943

I have seen two other RNZAF 40E-1's, one pretty much a whole airframe that had been kept under

wraps for some 60-70 years, and the colours are pretty much the same for top and bottom as my swatches

 

Hope that helps?

 

Regards

 

Alan

That's Great Alan!

and it does help indeed. Certainly the swatches you show match my best guess for the Corsair. 

I would like to hear from Carl Vincent on the RCAF Kittyhawks which supposedly used the same paint. Carl has been studying and writing about the Kittyhawks for decades and he has a 3 volume set of books coming from the great folks at Aviaeology.

Cheers,

Gord

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Bare with me while I try to catch up, but I thought the only time Dupont paints have been associated with Royal Navy Corsairs was on the initial instructions for their painting.   Dupont were lacquer,  while those paints applied to Corsairs were enamel.   Can the same paint ingredients be used when switching the solvent base from thinner to mineral spirits?

 

regards,

Jack

 

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6 minutes ago, JackG said:

Bare with me while I try to catch up, but I thought the only time Dupont paints have been associated with Royal Navy Corsairs was on the initial instructions for their painting.   Dupont were lacquer,  while those paints applied to Corsairs were enamel.   Can the same paint ingredients be used when switching the solvent base from thinner to mineral spirits?

regards,

Jack

 

Good grief and so the plot continues to thicken. From my experience lacquer thinners will disolve anything but there is no guaranteeing there wouldn't be a colour shift.

Dana? help!

Thanks again Jack

Gord

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Just to throw a spanner in the (mental) works, my advice in this case is not to go too far down the rabbit hole.

 

I find Sky a very difficult thing to reconcile- to me, it tends to look far too "colorful" (dark and/or "rich") as applied to models- this compared to my highly calibrated mental image of what Sky looks like based on looking at lots of photos- some of them even in color!  If you feel anything like the same way, then consider the utter lack of agreement on "US Sky", and pick one that looks about what you think it ought to look like.  If that doesn't satisfy you, remember that the form of lighting (display hall at contest, inside your home, "natural sunlight") is also going to have some influence on how the paint actually LOOKS when viewing the model.

 

One way of "testing" the different paint choices is to look at some models presented online, and if you see one that "looks right" to you, note what paint that builder used.

 

I'm all for understanding what my actual target is, but the bottom line is that you want it to appear pleasing to your eye when you're looking at the finished (or at least painted!) model.

 

OK, now I'll return to my usual rivet counting!

 

bob

 

p.s. I've got that Time Capsule book, though I confess I haven't "uploaded" it to my brain.  Happy to go digging for you if there's something you think it might help you with.

Edited by gingerbob
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On 14/09/2021 at 06:31, Gordon Parker said:

ANA 613 Sky is 71.103 which is RLM84 and that doesn't seem right at all. The other option is Mr Color C368 which is RAF Sky, quite a wide variance you will agree, So boo to that. No listing for AK, and of course Tamiya don't make it, so grrrrr. {-(

Vallejo are blinkin' useless at color matches.

I can tell you that this

model-color-vallejo-pastel-green-70885.j

 

Despite the name,  Pastel Green, is slightly greyer and lighter than the RAF museum book of MAP colour chips,  and that ANA 610 Sky (NOT 613)  is very slightly lighter and greyer than MAP Sky, (which is a pale but quite intense yellow green)  as there is a chip of ANA 610 in the Monogram The Official Monogram US Navy and Marine Corps Aircraft Color Guide Vol.2,  which contains these color chips, (for clarity, both of the above are actual paint chips)  and also includes ANA 603 Sea Gray and ANA 613 Olive Drab

scans were posted here a while back, and are shown below.

 

PTECTPK.jpg

 

MXQmutm.jpg

 

 

The book can be be bought is the USA for not a ridiculous amount.

 

If you want i can do you a photo of the charts and paint together.  

On 14/09/2021 at 06:31, Gordon Parker said:

Dana's suggestion of FS 34424 "ish" which is Vallejo 71.321 IJN light Gray Green and some Grey "ish" and still looks like the front runner, I will use a gray that will make 34424 warmer which will thus better match the hues in the photos of the Corsair II's.

again, I'd not trust Vallejo's stated matches AT ALL.  

I also have a FS 595B fan deck, so can add FS 34424 if you wish....    it's a clear day here so I might just do a pic anyway.

 

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3 hours ago, gingerbob said:

Just to throw a spanner in the (mental) works, my advice in this case is not to go too far down the rabbit hole.

I find Sky a very difficult thing to reconcile- to me, it tends to look far too "colorful" (dark and/or "rich") as applied to models- this compared to my highly calibrated mental image of what Sky looks like

OK, now I'll return to my usual rivet counting!

bob

p.s. I've got that Time Capsule book, though I confess I haven't "uploaded" it to my brain.  Happy to go digging for you if there's something you think it might help you with.

Hi Bob,

Thanks very much for this and I couldn't agree more. I have pretty much decided to do as you suggested and the colour swatches Alan posted are most helpful and have given me that mental (such as it is) image of what I am looking for.

I was a graphic artist in a former life (more than 40 years ago) and have the same understanding of colour that you do. I don't believe it is actually possible to find the "One True Colour" so I look more for a palette that is complimentary and doesn't make my brain go clang. So what I have been looking for is a baseline.

As an example,  for my SEAC Spitfire VIII I am using Gunze, I mean Mr Hobby #72 and 73 the colours look "right" to me. But I have never been a fan of their Greys. Model Air 307 works perfectly for me (and it sprays beautifully!).

Thanks again,

Gord

 

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1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

The book can be be bought is the USA for not a ridiculous amount.

If you want i can do you a photo of the charts and paint together.  

again, I'd not trust Vallejo's stated matches AT ALL.  

I also have a FS 595B fan deck, so can add FS 34424 if you wish....    it's a clear day here so I might just do a pic anyway.

 

Hi Troy,

That would be most helpful and much appreciated, in the meantime I will try and track down the book. When I have typed ANA Color Guide in my search engine I get a lot of raccoon colouring books. The actual title should help too! 😜

Cheers,

Gord

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1 hour ago, Gordon Parker said:

That would be most helpful

OK, 51479572275_f7b0df0132_b.jpg50621066 by losethekibble, on Flickr

 

on my screen this all looks a bit washed out.  Not a great camera. 

 In particular the RAL chips to the left,  which are quite intense in person, I just added those as I had them as well, and RAL decks are reasonably cheap, you can get them for about £17 IIRC.

Forgot to do the Vallejo,  but looking at the chips, ANA 610 is darker and greyer than Sky. 

To my eye 34424 is close to ANA 610,  34583 is closer to Sky, slightly yellower.

 

HTH

 

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I have to say that in my copy of the Monogram book the ANA610 looks far from the colour above, and my monitor is usually pretty good at colours.  Here the green has entirely disappeared and it looks almost fawn.

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50 minutes ago, Troy Smith said:

To my eye 34424 is close to ANA 610,  34583 is closer to Sky, slightly yellower.

 

HTH

 

Hi Troy,

Yeah the screen shots are not a match for my FS book, in fact 34424 looks to be a pale blue grey. This has always been my problem with  photos on the internet or photos in general. But it does give me something to work with as I have the FS book.

34583 looks like a pretty good match to standard RAF Sky and it is conveniently right under 34424 so the difference is quite apparent.

Many Thanks for this,

Gord

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8 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

I have to say that in my copy of the Monogram book the ANA610 looks far from the colour above, and my monitor is usually pretty good at colours.  Here the green has entirely disappeared and it looks almost fawn.

Hi Graham,

Using the FS book as a reference, what would be your bext match for ANA 610? In Dana's comment he suggested that 34424 was often cited but he had his doubts (sorry to paraphrase but believe I have the gist of his comments). The other question is how close would Dupont 71-021 be to ANA 610, are they a perfect match?

Cheers,

Gord

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Rather than relying on one other person's ability to compare colours across chips when you already have Dana's, I suggest that you try to find a reference for the Dupont colour.  The original identification was made by Nick Millman, and he does do a blog on USA colours of this period, but I don't have a link to it.  I've had a quick look at his similar one on Japanese aircraft, but couldn't find anything that read across.  He certainly approved the ColourCoats version of the colour, as shown on the Sovereign Hobbies website.  Another source of the Dupont colour chart for British colours  was available on Hyperscale and possibly still is, but my link to this is broken.  This came from Nick anyway, so I think you'd be better trying to track down a contact address: there must be members on this site to have access to the blog - for example Dana Bell.

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as I have mentioned a few times I can't get Colourcoats this side of the ditch so unless someone is willing to send me colour chips I am at a loss for those as reference.

Gord

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