Hikoki RLM Chart arrived!

[Steben]

Thanks to @Troy Smith for the logistics

 

They are gloss. To be treated with caution. You can't compare with matt colours.
Luckily I have a gloss RAL fan deck as well.

One thing that really caught my eye is RLM80 / 81 / 82. 80 and 82 are almost identical and both are quite a match to RAL6003. Second RLM81 looked familiar. And yes: quite a match to RAL6014.

Edited May 5, 2022 by Steben

[Steben]

COMPARISON HIKOKI CHART WITH OFFICIAL RAL FAN DECK

(Dana Bell style; only the close calls are mentioned)

 

RLM              RAL            comments

 

RLM 02        7003           slightly / a tad yellower than the rumoured RAL match

RLM 04        1004           good match, only a tad darker

 

RLM 11        7039           yellower than RAL

 

RLM 21        1013           close, towards 9001

RLM 23        3028           good match

RLM 25        6000           only slightly darker than RAL

RLM 26        8004           darker than RAL

RLM 27        1021           good match, only a tad lighter

 

RLM 41        7011           good match

RLM 42        7012           good match

 

RLM 61        8019           good match

RLM 63        7023           lighter than RAL

RLM 66        7021           good match, Heer dunkelgrau

 

RLM 70        6009           close, but a bit darker and less chroma (greyer)

RLM 71        6007           right hue, but a bit lighter / greyer

RLM 74        7022           very close, but a bit greener than RAL

RLM 75        7005           good match

RLM 77        9018           darker than RAL, between 7032 and 7035

 

RLM 80        6003           good match, only a tad darker

RLM 81        6014           good match, a bit greyer though, perhaps 6022 with some white, "RLM 81 olivbraun" variant

RLM 82        6003           good match

 

L40/52         7042           lighter than RAL

 

other colours need mixing

Edited June 30, 2021 by Steben

[Antti_K]

An interesting comparison Steben.

 

Have you seen the original comparison table published in 1944 in a handbook called "Flugzeugmaler"? It gives the "official" RAL -codes for various RLM shades. As an older RAL colour standard was used it would be nice to compare your findings with the "original" ones.

 

Some of the RLM Marking Colours are still in the current RAL K5 collection and with their original RAL 840 HR codes.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Steben]

11 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

An interesting comparison Steben.

 

Have you seen the original comparison table published in 1944 in a handbook called "Flugzeugmaler"? It gives the "official" RAL -codes for various RLM shades. As an older RAL colour standard was used it would be nice to compare your findings with the "original" ones.

 

Some of the RLM Marking Colours are still in the current RAL K5 collection and with their original RAL 840 HR codes.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

Just as many RAL colours are still the same, such as the basic 7008, 7016, 7021, 6003, 8000 and 8017 for example.

Reminds me of Nick Millman who states there is a difference between paint standards and paints applied. The first (standards) is, when talking German colours, actually very very stable in time. The difference in modern batches of paint and definitely different age will be huge compared to difference between standards of 1940 and today.
If only they hadn't dismissed some colours, like 7028, 7027 and 7018 for example.

 

Flugzeugmaler? I think I've seen snippets of those. 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Steben

[Steben]

Just realised I have this comparison table since I recently got Ullmans book in a haul. "Oberflächenshutzverfahren und Anstrichstoffe der deutschen Luftfahtindustrie und Luftwaffe 1935 - 1945"
I'll have a look.

[Antti_K]

3 minutes ago, Steben said:

Just realised I have this comparison table since I recently got Ullmans book in a haul. "Oberflächenshutzverfahren und Anstrichstoffe der deutschen Luftfahtindustrie und Luftwaffe 1935 - 1945"
I'll have a look.

 

Yes, it's there. I have been planning to make a study between the colour chips in Hitchcock's "Official Luftwaffe painting guide" and current RAL standard. Hitchcock's samples are based on Observed Colours of course, not on colour standard.

 

Cheers,

Antti

[Steben]

I have the Merrrick & Kirrof chips as well to compare. They are matt.

[Steben]

36 minutes ago, Antti_K said:

 

Yes, it's there. I have been planning to make a study between the colour chips in Hitchcock's "Official Luftwaffe painting guide" and current RAL standard. Hitchcock's samples are based on Observed Colours of course, not on colour standard.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 Cross reading Ullmann, I find it gives a lot of answers about technical issues, but raises some more questions regarding the colours.
And clearly there are already some difference between hikoki and ullmann.
Im wondering about Merrick & Kiroff

Added RLM 26 and RLM 61 (how could I miss this one!).

Edited June 30, 2021 by Steben

[Graham Boak]

Merrick and Kiroff should be the most reliable, because of the way they were produced.  But getting into the very late war colours is always going to be exceedingly fraught.  Assuming source A is right and source B is wrong may well apply to official specifications and even company records, but may not apply to the particular aircraft you want to model. 

[Steben]

3 minutes ago, Graham Boak said:

Merrick and Kiroff should be the most reliable, because of the way they were produced.  But getting into the very late war colours is always going to be exceedingly fraught.  Assuming source A is right and source B is wrong may well apply to official specifications and even company records, but may not apply to the particular aircraft you want to model. 

Yes, again standards and application are different issues. Paint mixing was not done centrally.

It is astonishing though besides the 80-81-82-83 discussions, the grey-blue colours are not or rarely mentioned in comparison, nor do they have close RAL matches, which is already clear in the contemporary comparisons.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Steben

[Graham Boak]

I'm not sure what you mean about the grey-blue colours, There is considerable discussion to be found on the different appearances of 76 and the greenish "German Sky" colour.  The best source of the latter is probably Jerry Crandall in the US, and his publications, but the very light appearance of late-war 76 appears as far back as the Kookburra volumes.

 

I'm not sure that I believe in late-war "paint mixing".  I can't help feeling that there were a lot more important things to be getting on with in very little time, and whatever paint was available would have been used,

[Steben]

1 minute ago, Graham Boak said:

I'm not sure what you mean about the grey-blue colours, There is considerable discussion to be found on the different appearances of 76 and the greenish "German Sky" colour.  The best source of the latter is probably Jerry Crandall in the US, and his publications, but the very light appearance of late-war 76 appears as far back as the Kookburra volumes.

 

I'm not sure that I believe in late-war "paint mixing".  I can't help feeling that there were a lot more important things to be getting on with in very little time, and whatever paint was available would have been used,

RLM 65, 76, 78

[Rolls-Royce]

16 hours ago, Steben said:

 Cross reading Ullmann, I find it gives a lot of answers about technical issues, but raises some more questions regarding the colours.
And clearly there are already some difference between hikoki and ullmann.
Im wondering about Merrick & Kiroff

Added RLM 26 and RLM 61 (how could I miss this one!).

The Hikoki chart is the updated version of the chart that was included in the Ullmann book, with some changes to certain colors vs the original (69, 70, 71, 72, 76, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83). My copy of Ullmann came with the original chart and an enclosed form/coupon for the updated one which also listed the changes between the two. As the book is currently OOP, I figured the newer chart was, too, and never sent in the coupon. When I discovered the availability of the Hikoki chart some time ago, I ordered one.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Rolls-Royce

[SafetyDad]

On 30/06/2021 at 20:14, Steben said:

It is astonishing though besides the 80-81-82-83 discussions, the grey-blue colours are not or rarely mentioned in comparison, nor do they have close RAL matches, which is already clear in the contemporary comparisons.

 

On 30/06/2021 at 20:21, Graham Boak said:

I'm not sure what you mean about the grey-blue colours, There is considerable discussion to be found on the different appearances of 76 and the greenish "German Sky" colour.  The best source of the latter is probably Jerry Crandall in the US, and his publications, but the very light appearance of late-war 76 appears as far back as the Kookburra volumes.

 

 

 

I wonder if Steben is referring to these?

 

 

They're from here

 

 

 

This might be from 1982, and some of the descriptive text within is now known to be in error, but the large, accurate paint chips included (and the open-minded nature of the two authors to new ideas, plus the limits of their understandings) mean this work still has merit in my view.

 

On 30/06/2021 at 19:33, Antti_K said:

 

Yes, it's there. I have been planning to make a study between the colour chips in Hitchcock's "Official Luftwaffe painting guide" and current RAL standard. Hitchcock's samples are based on Observed Colours of course, not on colour standard.

 

Cheers,

Antti

 

And @Antti_K is exactly correct I feel - what tends to generate most conflict and strife on these threads about colour is the conflict between what people tell us should be present versus what we actually can see. That is observed versus contemporary standard.

 

As an illustration, have a look at this picture and consider what you see in terms of camouflage colours and then compare it what we're told they should be.

 

 

 

Although the colour has shifted over the years, if you look at the flesh tones, the olive drab of the uniform and the trees you can see that we've lost some greens and maybe some yellow here. It's a late war Fw 190, so should perhaps be 81/82/76?

 

Nevertheless, I see three different underside colours on this Fw 190. 

The cowling ring, underside and air filter bulge

The cowling side above the air filter bulge (next to the airman's right lower leg)

And the wing underside (directly below his boots)

are all different.

 

And the landing gear cover might be a fourth colour (or it might be an artefact of differing lighting conditions).

I know there's an argument about sub-contractors pre-painting their products and then assembly occurring, but are these three variants of one colour? Or three different colours entirely? Or a combination of the two? 

 

I'm simply making an observation - not intending to challenge or provoke. It's been a very good-natured thread with constructive discussion so far, and that's exactly how I would wish it to continue.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jochen Barett]

5 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

+++

Nevertheless, I see three different underside colours on this Fw 190. 

The cowling ring, underside and air filter bulge

The cowling side above the air filter bulge (next to the airman's right lower leg)

And the wing underside (directly below his boots)

are all different. +++

 

I see two different colors,

 

- "The cowling ring, underside and air filter bulge" a disturbingly and almost unexplainable light blue rather like RLM 65 than 76

- "The cowling side above the air filter bulge (next to the airman's right lower leg) And the wing underside (directly below his boots)" a disturbingly green light grey, one may attribute to RLM 76 with an overspray of 02 (or another green) on the fuselage and leading wing edge and / or in the cleaner areas a paint manufacturing "problem".

 

But as you put it so well "I'm simply making an observation - not intending to challenge or provoke. It's been a very good-natured thread with constructive discussion so far, and that's exactly how I would wish it to continue." so this is my "thought" on my observation and no dispute or challenge.

 

I would like to read the "official" composition of RLM 76 and give it a thought wether any "material shortage" or a "new binder" or "improvement in the manufacturing process" could have caused the green hue - or maybe it even was "an impovement in camouflage effect ordered by the RLM but we still need to find the original Befehl with Herman Göring's signature introducing the new RLM 84 per June 15th 1945".

Edited July 6, 2021 by Jochen Barett
gave "my" an "a" to make it "may"

[Steben]

The wing underside colour is different on different parts on the picture... left side it is almost as whitish as the cowling ring. So you can easily make it 4 or 5 colours ... at some poitn it really becomes unrealistic.

Problem with these pictures is they are easily aged or badly scanned. I'm not saying: impossible, but the reality is many old colour pictures have discolouration.

WHat we DO know however is the fact Lufwaffe camo has always been prone to the use of different base colours and added disruptives and mottled colours.

Even in 1940 this happened with the use of RLM02 on top of everything. or ... is it RAL7003 🤣

 

What OD or khaki types of colour was to the Allies, GREY was the holy grail for the Germans. More than half of all Luftwaffe colours are shades of grey, helmets were mostly grey. The use of dunkelgelb base colour is the only shocking German colour use during ww2. Point being: it is a very difficult subject and discerning grey based colour is even more difficult.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Steben