A-20G Havoc question

[Spitfires Forever]

Hello all,

I was going through my meager resources relating to the A-20/Boston and could not find any reliable, or at least plentiful information on the use of the gun nose A-20G in the ETO. I have an old AMT built in PTO/SWP markings that I would like to convert to an ETO aircraft if indeed they were used in that theatre. I assume that they were used in Europe but could not find any pictures of them used by the USAAF or RAF. Anyone know anything about this subject? I have never seen decals for this particular aircraft which usually means they were not used in that particular theatre, or at least were so little used that there is no interest in the subject. Who knows? hopefully someone may know about the use of this aircraft in the ETO.

Cheers

[Giorgio N]

The A-20G was used in the ETO by the 410th and 416th BG of the 9th AF.

There are several pictures of these aircrafts, some sporting d-day invasion stripes. The 410th BG aircrafts had white rudders with black stripes so if you see any picture of an A-20G with this feature, it's of one of these aircrafts.

I don't think the RAF used the G at all (while they used the J version), but the Soviets used a good number of A-20Gs

[Troy Smith]

Hi Randy

Giorgio beat me to it, but here's my post anyway.

I have a pic of a A-20G with 410 BG, 9th AF, after D-day with painted out AEAF stripes. [page 67 of USAAF camo markings ETO-MTO 1942-45 by Dana Bell, if you happen to have this ]

Have a search for a pdf of the Ducimus camo and markings, there is a USSAF one. Mines not to hand.

I'll have a look later. Just hit the 'image' search on google ...

http://www.google.co...biw=940&bih=611

Edited August 16, 2012 by Troy Smith

[Giorgio N]

Beautiful ! It's an aircraft of the 644 BS, 410 BG. The stripes on wing, fuselage and tail make it a great subject.

I must add that I forgot one Bomb Wing: the 409th BG also used the type in europe, again as part of the 9th AF

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks Gentlemen, I figured it was used but I wonder in what context? As a mid altitude bomber the gun nose would be of little use, so were they ever used for ground attack/intruder missions? I would assume that they were but I would need to look at the operational records on the particular units. It seems that I have seen J models in the same markings and squadron codes in what pictures I could find of ETO A-20's, so mid altitude bombing missions were probably their major use. Now to find decals, or at least make them up from spares.

Cheers

[Troy Smith]

Randy

If you just want an ETO A-20G, the Italeri rebox of the kit had 4 options, one is an ETO A-20, so that will be in various folks decal stashes, I'd ask if anyone has them spare.

see http://kits.kitrevie...greviewbg_1.htm

here's the scheme

http://kits.kitrevie...greviewbg_1.htm

HTH

T

[Spitfires Forever]

Thanks Troy,

I have four AMT kits awaiting my not so capable hands. My plans are to build the J model in RAF markings, The P-70 in RAAF, one of my Boston's in French markings with the other one in the C model configuration as an Operation Torch aircraft. I am hoping to convert my only G model to an ETO scheme, I figured it would be a fairly easy conversion. Perhaps someone has a set of the ETO markings they don't need. Always good to hear from you mate, all the best.

Cheers

[Giorgio N]

The same aircraft represented on the Italeri cover was the subject of an old aeromaster sheet, number 48-104. The sheet also included 2 PTO aircrafts (one of them the famous Green Hornet) and an australian aircraft.

It's not unusual if you have seen pictures of J model aircrafts in the same markings: all the bomb wings mentioned are listed as having used both Gs and Js. In all the units, the A-20 was then replaced by the A-26

[Test Graham]

The Js carried the lead bombardiers, with the formation dropping in unison. I've seen no reference to use of the G as a strafer in the ETO, only as level bomber from medium altitudes. Some aircraft saw use as night intruders, but the only photo I've seen was a J. A dedicated navigator would seem useful for the night role.

[Spitfires Forever]

The same aircraft represented on the Italeri cover was the subject of an old aeromaster sheet, number 48-104. The sheet also included 2 PTO aircrafts (one of them the famous Green Hornet) and an australian aircraft.

It's not unusual if you have seen pictures of J model aircrafts in the same markings: all the bomb wings mentioned are listed as having used both Gs and Js. In all the units, the A-20 was then replaced by the A-26

Thanks for the information, it seems that I have seen that set on EvilBay but it usually goes fast. I will keep my eye out for it.

Cheers

[Ed Russell]

My plans are to build the P-70 in RAAF (markings)

Umm.... no nightfighters..... unless you mean the kit is a nightfighter and you are going to convert it.

RAAF Bostons included Mk IIIs (A-20C) with transparent noses for bomb-aimers, and Mk IVs (A-20G) with enclosed gun-carrying nose. Most Mk IIIs were modified to Mk IV standard, and other improvements included the installation of long-range tanks and increased armament. The 69 RAAF Bostons were numbered A28-1/40 and A28-59/78, and were taken on strength between 29 March 1942 and 4 October 1944. RAAF Museum quote

Edited August 17, 2012 by Ed Russell

[Arniec]

Hi Randy,

There was also a kit from revell with a A-20G in it that was used in the ETO.It was one with invasion stripes and a mouth on it.

These are a leftover from a build so if you are interested yust pm me you details and I will send them to you.

Cheers

[feropete]

Umm.... no nightfighters..... unless you mean the kit is a nightfighter and you are going to convert it.

RAAF Bostons included Mk IIIs (A-20C) with transparent noses for bomb-aimers, and Mk IVs (A-20G) with enclosed gun-carrying nose. Most Mk IIIs were modified to Mk IV standard, and other improvements included the installation of long-range tanks and increased armament. The 69 RAAF Bostons were numbered A28-1/40 and A28-59/78, and were taken on strength between 29 March 1942 and 4 October 1944. RAAF Museum quote

Not strictly correct.

1. The RAAF did not designate their aircraft as Boston III and Boston IV.

2. The RAAF A/C did not carry bomb aimers, only a crew of two, pilot and gunner. All were modified with extra guns in nose as stated but, the layout differed according to version.

3. The RAAF's Bostons were:

DB-7B: A28-1 to -22

A-20C: A28-23 to -31

A20A: A28-32 to 40

A20G: A28-50 to 78.

Peter

[Ed Russell]

Not strictly correct.

RAAF Museum quote

You mean they are wrong lol

[Spitfires Forever]

I have seen the Havoc in the RAAF museum, they sprayed over the perspex where 4 M2 .50 calibre machineguns were installed. I hope to be able to duplicate the foliage green properly. since the P-70 kit has a nose replicating that used by the RAAF Havocs the conversion should not be too hard.

Cheers

[feropete]

Hey Ed,

The RAAF Museum aren't always correct! Just look at the way they painted the Mustang!

And, Spitfire Addict, they do not have a Havoc, the aircraft is a Boston. I'm not sure how you will go using a P-70 nose. Of the RAAF's Bostons, only the A-20G had a solid nose.

The other RAAF Bostons originally had glazed noses. When the DB-7C, (not DB-7B as I miss-typed earlier ), machines had the four .5 cals added after receipt by the RAAF, they were arranged to fire through what had originally been the bomb aimers flat clear-view panel and, the perspex in the rest of the 'glass house' was replaced with aluminium sheet. Makes sense really when you consider the blast effect of four .5 cals firing at once.

The A-20Cs were modified before receipt by the RAAF and had three .5 cals fitted horizontally and mounted above the bomb aimer's flat window. I'm not sure as to when the A-20As were modified but, they carried their m.g.s in the same arrangement as the DB-7Cs.

A reference well worth getting is Gary Byk's "Frend Bilong Australia Tru", published by Red Roo. (I must confess to an interest in that book as I helped out with a few photos).

As a fellow Spitfire Addict, and also one who is involved in building two Boston models at the moment, I hope that I have been able to provide a little assistance.

Cheers,

Peter

Edited August 18, 2012 by feropete

[Ed Russell]

The RAAF Museum aren't always correct!

Surely they are not.... lol... but (most of the time) they do try! For it's size and budget - quite a good museum.....

A reference well worth getting is Gary Byk's "Frend Bilong Australia Tru", published by Red Roo. (I must confess to an interest in that book as I helped out with a few photos)

I'll second that - with even more vested interest - it is a very useful book.

http://www.redroomod...ooks.php?book=8

As far as P-70's go, there is a thread here maybe of use

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=56543

Edited August 18, 2012 by Ed Russell

[feropete]

Surely they are not.... lol... but (most of the time) they do try! For it's size and budget - quite a good museum.....

I'll second that - with even more vested interest - it is a very useful book.

http://www.redroomod...ooks.php?book=8

As far as P-70's go, there is a thread here maybe of use

http://www.britmodel...showtopic=56543

Agree wholeheartedly!!! They do a very good job, both full time staff and volunteers.

Peter

[Spitfires Forever]

Hey Ed,

The RAAF Museum aren't always correct! Just look at the way they painted the Mustang!

And, Spitfire Addict, they do not have a Havoc, the aircraft is a Boston. I'm not sure how you will go using a P-70 nose. Of the RAAF's Bostons, only the A-20G had a solid nose.

The other RAAF Bostons originally had glazed noses. When the DB-7C, (not DB-7B as I miss-typed earlier ), machines had the four .5 cals added after receipt by the RAAF, they were arranged to fire through what had originally been the bomb aimers flat clear-view panel and, the perspex in the rest of the 'glass house' was replaced with aluminium sheet. Makes sense really when you consider the blast effect of four .5 cals firing at once.

The P-70 kit is molded with a solid Perspex nose, in other words you can see the molded window pattern even though the plastic is not transparent. I did read in interview of former RAAF pilots in an old magazine about use of Boston's and

Beau,s, and the pilot did refer to his aircraft as a Havoc, so go figure? there were some G,s converted to night fighting in New Guinea or some out of the way pacific armpit, a few good pics of them in the "in action" book by squadron. anyway, since the Boston III's were converted to gun nosed aircraft much like early B-25's where they just painted out the clear Perspex and mounted guns protruding through the Perspex nose, this way I don't have to spray over a nice clear nose that I want to use for my Boston's.

Cheers

The A-20Cs were modified before receipt by the RAAF and had three .5 cals fitted horizontally and mounted above the bomb aimer's flat window. I'm not sure as to when the A-20As were modified but, they carried their m.g.s in the same arrangement as the DB-7Cs.

A reference well worth getting is Gary Byk's "Frend Bilong Australia Tru", published by Red Roo. (I must confess to an interest in that book as I helped out with a few photos).

As a fellow Spitfire Addict, and also one who is involved in building two Boston models at the moment, I hope that I have been able to provide a little assistance.

Cheers,

Peter

[justplanecrazy]

Hey Ed,

The RAAF Museum aren't always correct! Just look at the way they painted the Mustang!

And, Spitfire Addict, they do not have a Havoc, the aircraft is a Boston. I'm not sure how you will go using a P-70 nose. Of the RAAF's Bostons, only the A-20G had a solid nose.

The other RAAF Bostons originally had glazed noses. When the DB-7C, (not DB-7B as I miss-typed earlier ), machines had the four .5 cals added after receipt by the RAAF, they were arranged to fire through what had originally been the bomb aimers flat clear-view panel and, the perspex in the rest of the 'glass house' was replaced with aluminium sheet. Makes sense really when you consider the blast effect of four .5 cals firing at once.

The A-20Cs were modified before receipt by the RAAF and had three .5 cals fitted horizontally and mounted above the bomb aimer's flat window. I'm not sure as to when the A-20As were modified but, they carried their m.g.s in the same arrangement as the DB-7Cs.

A reference well worth getting is Gary Byk's "Frend Bilong Australia Tru", published by Red Roo. (I must confess to an interest in that book as I helped out with a few photos).

As a fellow Spitfire Addict, and also one who is involved in building two Boston models at the moment, I hope that I have been able to provide a little assistance.

Cheers,

Peter

Hi Peter, I've just found some pictures of a couple of the A-20A's in US service previous to transfer and they were operated by the Americans with the gun nose mod. I'll send you the images.

Nick