1/48 Phantom RF-4B USMC

[zero]

chaps

Coming back from club night, I'm fired up to build something. going to put the F-15 to one side having botched the intakes, (probably save it for the next KUTA build, later this year) so I've dragged a phantom from the stash, to start something fresh.

I've decided to go with this kit

and I'm going to attempt to build this.

We have already had a small debate on this in this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52998

And to quote Julian

Yes,

from looking at photos 157351 has the rounded-style camera nose instead of the angular style that all but the last three production birds have. Has different afterburners as the J79-GE-8 engines were later replaced by J79-GE-10 engines, nothing to do with the painting.

You definatly need the bulged wings and thick wheels

So before even starting, can anyone confirm

Does this kit have the right nose, wheels, jetpipes? (we already know the wings are wrong)

And Which parts (part numbers, Letters if possable) would be best to replaces the incorrect parts. (I do have some spares, so I might be able to juggle bits, here and there)

Right i'm off to the loft to get the kit

Dave

Edited July 29, 2010 by zero

[periklis_sale]

Dave,

the kit gives the rounded nose plus the long exhaust

now regarding wheels.....i dont think that anybody will notice the differences! I will go with the kit's ones!

[zero]

Phanks Periklis

Font of knowleage again, cheers mate,

the Kit has the L wings, which ones would be more suitable/correct for this build. (wing differences is not my strong point)

Dave

PS you still looking for sparklers, (Aim-9L's)

[Julien]

The kit has the right wing to build any of the 10 last RF-4B's made as they were converted from F-4J airframes. In fact seems strange they made a kit from which you could only do 10 airframes.

I dont think it has the right camera nose, although this is not very noticable.

I think you will need different burner cans.

Julien

Edited July 29, 2010 by Julien

[Giorgio N]

There was a build of that kit in an old issue of Sami, and it shows that contains the F-4J bulged wing. This was used on the last 12 RF-4B built, including your example and the one on the kit box cover.

[zero]

We are back with that 10 and 12 thing again. thanks to Jenns I know the answer

Parts so far, not sure about the aires cans

Dave

[zero]

kits nose,

Angular?

Also in the above picture, it looks totally clean bar the centreline would this be the case for normal Op's, or would it have the four underside missiles in place as well. (i'm not doing any wing stores) need some more reference pictures!

Cheers

Dave

[Julien]

Yes it is a 10/12

The confusion lies in the BU numbers, the wing was used on the last 12 aircraft with 2 from one batch and then the last 10 in a single batch.

RF-4B's

34 thin wing 151975 to 151983, and 153089 to 153113

9 thick wing, Angular nose 153114, 153115 - 157342 to 157348

3 thick wing, Rounded nose 157349 to 157351

The rounded nose was only added to the last 3 aircraft. This is the same nose as used on a RF-4C so thechnical to build one of the last 3 you need to cross kit with an RF-4C, but to be honest most but the hard nosed phantom phanatic would not notice. Another option would be the old paragon RF-4C conversion for the F-4 Kit.

The new engines and additional bumps were added later to all surviving RF-4B's. Post SLEP & post SURE the engines were the same as used on late J's so you would need the burner cans for these. Which ones are you aries ones?

Julien

ps check out: http://www.mcara.us/RF-4B.html

Edited July 29, 2010 by Julien

[zero]

Jez Julian

you know your tooms

the Aires set I have is for the F-4 E, F, G, J, EJ, & S, 4118 these seem to be as long as the kits longer nozzles, but as I said I don't know if there the best ones to use. (I'm a long way off fitting them though!)

Also would I be right in say that this model is correct only for 7 aircraft, ie the last 10, minus the last 3 as they had RF-4C rounded noses?

I also would be very greatful for clarification on the Hasegawa wings, ie wing sets letter equal which wings

ie Thick wing = the L set?

what about the C and the M sets.

Thanks for all your help Julian, (Ps chek your PM)

Dave

Edited July 29, 2010 by zero

[tony.t]

The rounded nose was only added to the last 3 aircraft. This is the same nose as used on a RF-4C so thechnical to build one of the last 3 you need to cross kit with an RF-4C, but to be honest most but the hard nosed phantom phanatic would not notice. Another option would be the old paragon RF-4C conversion for the F-4 Kit.

The difference in nose shape is determined by the camera hatches, and my RF-4B kit has both styles in the box - look at the clear parts, not the fuselage components.

IIRC (mine is deep in the loft, and I have been going daft for years) it has both thick and thin wheels and the thicker wing, as I was intending to swap the wheels and tail slabs with a Revell FGR.2 to make an RF-4C and FG.1, respectively, so the kit should be good to go, as they say.

[Giorgio N]

Regarding the underside missiles, these were not carried as the RF-4 radar did not have the CW illumination capability to guide the sparrows. USMC RF-4 never carried any armament.

BTW, the RF-4C and E had the sparrow slows faired over, not sure about the B but might be the same.

[zero]

The difference in nose shape is determined by the camera hatches, and my RF-4B kit has both styles in the box - look at the clear parts, not the fuselage components.

IIRC (mine is deep in the loft, and I have been going daft for years) it has both thick and thin wheels and the thicker wing, as I was intending to swap the wheels and tail slabs with a Revell FGR.2 to make an RF-4C and FG.1, respectively, so the kit should be good to go, as they say.

Hi Tony, we will soon find out, my son as we speak is heading for the loft, to retrieve a C. lol

I notice the kit has both sets of wheels and now all I need to know is what is hasegawa letter for the Thin Wing?

Cheers

Dave

I have both kits here now, the noses are the same, but the C only has one set of camera glazing, The B has both, so thats very handy thanks.

Decided to go as is, almost OOB but with the Eduard set, and I'll worry about the cans as I go. but I think there what I need.

Cheers for all your help guys

Dave

Edited July 29, 2010 by zero

[zero]

Regarding the underside missiles, these were not carried as the RF-4 radar did not have the CW illumination capability to guide the sparrows. USMC RF-4 never carried any armament.

BTW, the RF-4C and E had the sparrow slows faired over, not sure about the B but might be the same.

Thanks for that, the picture shows it to be pretty clean bar the centreline tank, so that was the plan, (makes the build faster too!)

Clearly I need more reference pictures of this bird.

Dave

Also does anyone have the URL for the site that has all the Hasegawa sprues for the phantom, F-15, and F-16 I thought I had bookmarked it.

Cheers

Edited July 29, 2010 by zero

[periklis_sale]

http://www.1999.co.jp/search_e.asp?Typ1_c=...f-4&SPage=3

[pigsty]

For all Hasegawa Phantom kits, this page is still hard to beat and I think is the one zero means. The original thin wing is sprue B, which isn't in the RF-4B kits, but all three of them appear to contain both angular and rounded camera fairings. Certainly mine (PT31) does.

Edited July 29, 2010 by pigsty

[zero]

For all Hasegawa Phantom kits, this page is still hard to beat and I think is the one zero means. The original thin wing is sprue B, which isn't in the RF-4B kits, but all three of them appear to contain both angular and rounded camera fairings. Certainly mine (PT31) does.

Thanks, that was the one I wanted. and yes the kit does have both camera fairing, the C only has one.

Thanks for all the info guys

[Jens]

It seems there are some serious misunderstandings in this thread. I now have the Hasegawa RF-4B kit in front of me so let's sort things out.

the Kit has the L wings, which ones would be more suitable/correct for this build. (wing differences is not my strong point)

The L sprue wings are correct for RF-4B BuNo 157351, i.e. the overall black one.

The kit has the right wing to build any of the 10 last RF-4B's made as they were converted from F-4J airframes. In fact seems strange they made a kit from which you could only do 10 airframes.

You are right about the number being 10, but they were not converted from anything, they were simply just being built with the same wing as the then current USN/USMC version, i.e. the F-4J. The last 10 RF-4Bs were built some years after the first 36 with a gap inbetween, partly to cover the losses from SE Asia.

There was a build of that kit in an old issue of Sami, and it shows that contains the F-4J bulged wing. This was used on the last 12 RF-4B built, including your example and the one on the kit box cover.

No, the bulged wing was still only used on the last 10 (ten) RF-4Bs. The other number is an often quoted error.

kits nose,

Angular?

You cannot see the shape of the camera bays on this part. You'll need to look at parts W1/W2 (rounded nose) and parts X1/X2 (angular nose). For BuNo 157351 you will need parts W1/W2.

Yes it is a 10/12

The confusion lies in the BU numbers, the wing was used on the last 12 aircraft with 2 from one batch and then the last 10 in a single batch.

RF-4B's

34 thin wing 151975 to 151983, and 153089 to 153113

9 thick wing, Angular nose 153114, 153115 - 157342 to 157348

3 thick wing, Rounded nose 157349 to 157351

The rounded nose was only added to the last 3 aircraft. This is the same nose as used on a RF-4C so thechnical to build one of the last 3 you need to cross kit with an RF-4C, but to be honest most but the hard nosed phantom phanatic would not notice. Another option would be the old paragon RF-4C conversion for the F-4 Kit.

The new engines and additional bumps were added later to all surviving RF-4B's. Post SLEP & post SURE the engines were the same as used on late J's so you would need the burner cans for these. Which ones are you aries ones?

Julien

ps check out: http://www.mcara.us/RF-4B.html

That is still not correct. BuNos 153114 and 153115 had the same thin/unbulged wings as the other early 34 airframes. Only RF-4Bs in the BuNo 1573xx series had the thick/bulged wings. You are right about the 3 last ones having the rounded nose though. The Hasegawa kit shown in the pictures contains both nose profiles.

Jez Julian

you know your tooms

the Aires set I have is for the F-4 E, F, G, J, EJ, & S, 4118 these seem to be as long as the kits longer nozzles, but as I said I don't know if there the best ones to use. (I'm a long way off fitting them though!)

Yes, those nozzles would be the correct ones for the overall black 157351.

Also would I be right in say that this model is correct only for 7 aircraft, ie the last 10, minus the last 3 as they had RF-4C rounded noses?

No, my kit contains both nose profiles so you are limited to the last 10 airframes.

I also would be very greatful for clarification on the Hasegawa wings, ie wing sets letter equal which wings

ie Thick wing = the L set?

Yes, the L sprue wings are correct for RF-4Bs 157342 - 157351.

For all Hasegawa Phantom kits, this page is still hard to beat and I think is the one zero means. The original thin wing is sprue B, which isn't in the RF-4B kits, but all three of them appear to contain both angular and rounded camera fairings. Certainly mine (PT31) does.

The thin/unbulged wing assembly (from the B sprue) will not fit the RF-4B without some work. It was designed for the old F-4B/N with the raised panel lines, and the moulds were obviously changed a bit when Hasegawa retooled the F-4J from the raised panel line version to the recessed panel line version. That's the reason why Hasegawa issued this kit in a configuration limited to 10 airframes.

HTH,

Jens

[zero]

Jez

Thanks Jens for the work that went in to that little lot. thanks for all the info.

the black one it is with parts out of the box, and the Aires set of exhaust I have to hand.

Sorry to throw another question but here goes.

I presume from your answers, these boxings are technically incorrect then

7342

7346

or are these part of the same batch of ten as both these kits have the L wing too, ie all the number are in the same range?

Thanks for all your help

Dave

Edited July 29, 2010 by zero

[Jens]

You're welcome.

The two other kits are correct too. You can determine the BuNo from the 'last four' painted with large numbers on the aft fuselage. If they are in the 73xx range the Hasegawa can be used.

Bothe 157342 and 157346 had the angular nose as shown on the box top picture and artwork.

Regards,

Jens

[zero]

You're welcome.

The two other kits are correct too. You can determine the BuNo from the 'last four' painted with large numbers on the aft fuselage. If they are in the 73xx range the Hasegawa can be used.

Bothe 157342 and 157346 had the angular nose as shown on the box top picture and artwork.

Regards,

Jens

Thanks for that mate, I have both of these up for sale, but I won't be devistated, if they don't sell. LOL

Cheers

Dave

[Julien]

Jens,

http://www.mcara.us/RF-4B.html list However, the last twelve (BuNos 153114, 153115, and 157342/157351) were built with the wide wheels and the "thick" wing of the F-4J., you are right this was not a conversion, also seen here http://www.f-4.nl/f4_6.html

This is also corroborated by the text in the Aerospace publishing book on the F-4. I would really like to get a look at pics of 153114 or 115 to prove this one way or another.

Dave,

look here for burner can differences;

http://www.angelfire.com/dc/jinxx1/Phantoms/F4bits.html

[Jens]

Pictures of 153114 and 153115 are hard, if not impossible, to find as both were lost early in their service. Trust me, I have tried. I have raised the question for both pictures and confirmation of the wing types on the F-4 discussion forum (where there's a a lot of knowledgeable people), and this was Bill Spidle's reply:

"I found my F-4 Configuration chart and it offers the following on wheels:

30 x 11.5 Wheels & Tires (Blk 41) which included RF-4B-41-MC 157342 to 157346

153114, 153115 were Block 27 with the 30 x 7.7 Wheels & Tires"

This settled it once and for all. That books are websites still quote the incorrect number doesn't make it right.

Regards,

Jens

[Jennings Heilig]

from looking at photos 157351 has the rounded-style camera nose instead of the angular style that all but the last three production birds have. Has different afterburners as the J79-GE-8 engines were later replaced by J79-GE-10 engines, nothing to do with the painting.

You definatly need the bulged wings and thick wheels[/b][/i]

So before even starting, can anyone confirm

Does this kit have the right nose, wheels, jetpipes? (we already know the wings are wrong)

And Which parts (part numbers, Letters if possable) would be best to replaces the incorrect parts. (I do have some spares, so I might be able to juggle bits, here and there)

Right i'm off to the loft to get the kit

The wings are correct. Any RF-4B with a 157xxx BuNo is one of the last batch built, all with the bulged wing. I hadn't seen one with the rounded camera nose, but even if the box doesn't have it, you can get it from Hasegawa or in a horse trade from someone. The wheels should be the wider F-4J style, which I'm sure are in the kit. If not, there are plenty of aftermarket alternatives. Just be sure not to use the Air Force style mains. FWIW, the nose wheels in all Hasegawa Phantoms are incorrect. The hub is much too big in relation to the overall size of the tire (sorry, tyre). Jetpipes should be the long ones on these a/c IIRC.

J

[zero]

The wings are correct. Any RF-4B with a 157xxx BuNo is one of the last batch built, all with the bulged wing. I hadn't seen one with the rounded camera nose, but even if the box doesn't have it, you can get it from Hasegawa or in a horse trade from someone. The wheels should be the wider F-4J style, which I'm sure are in the kit. If not, there are plenty of aftermarket alternatives. Just be sure not to use the Air Force style mains. FWIW, the nose wheels in all Hasegawa Phantoms are incorrect. The hub is much too big in relation to the overall size of the tire (sorry, tyre). Jetpipes should be the long ones on these a/c IIRC.

J

J (all)

Thanks for all your help with this info, I'm really grateful. I have a passion for the phantom, but I'm no expert like some of you.

Seems I'm all ready to rock and roll now. kits all ready to go, I've clipped out all the spares out, and i've got a colour etch set and the aires exhaust and I shall be starting it monday evening for sure. (sadly not sooner, due to working nights this weekend, and I only mess up when I work when tired!)

Cheers guys

be starting a WIP thread soon

Dave

Edited July 31, 2010 by zero

[periklis_sale]

come on mate i think its about time to start!!!