Photos or painting schemes for Soviet airplanes invading Poland in 1939?

[Learstang]

J-W, for the most part, the I-5s were only advanced trainers in 1941. It was only as an emergency measure that some were impressed into a combat role in 1941. At the time of the German invasion, they were still trainers. That's what makes me wonder if the DI-6s were trainers also. I had read that the DI-6s were used for ground instruction training only, not flight training, but that photograph makes me wonder if they also weren't being used as flying trainers at the time of Barbarossa.

 

Regards,

 

Jason

[spaddad]

On 06/03/2017 at 9:33 PM, Dimmy said:

Well, I found few more schemes from that article in slightly better quality. Here they are:

 

1. DI-6 from 14 ShAP

 

2. R-Z from 6 LBAP

 

3. SB from 4 DRE (Far Reconnaissance Unit)

 

 

4. R-5 from 5 LBAP

Nice work  Dimmy, much appreciated,

cheers,

spad

[JWM]

7 hours ago, Learstang said:

I had read that the DI-6s were used for ground instruction training only, not flight training, but that photograph makes me wonder if they also weren't being used as flying trainers at the time of Barbarossa.

Ideed - If they would be used as ground instruction trainer likely they will not stand one by another. This will be a single machine standing  somwhere "by the fence", likely with wings removed. One photos they looks like ready for flight airplanes destroyed by attack.

AFAIR some light white band around fuselage was used in VVS to mark airplanes phased out from flying (or having limitations in flying?). I found such info when I was doing UT-2 trainer years ago. I am not sure if it is true.

Cheers

J-W

[Dimmy]

6 hours ago, Learstang said:

That's what makes me wonder if the DI-6s were trainers also. I had read that the DI-6s were used for ground instruction training only, not flight training, but that photograph makes me wonder if they also weren't being used as flying trainers at the time of Barbarossa.

 

At the end of June 1940 VVS had 180 DI-6 (42 of them in non flying / need of repair state). In July 1940 VVS issued order to cancel further storage of DI-6 spare parts and later (October 1940) there was another directive to write off 13 DI-6 (in non-repairable conditions) and 80 DI-6 (in need of moderate repairs).

 

Considering those Barbarossa photos (DI-6, I-5) - they were taken at Vasilkov' VVS ground crew (mechanics) school (at Kiev region).

As you may see, some of them had their engines removed:

 

 

Others had their retractible gear sealed of and non-operational:

 

 

And gunner position was disabled (gunner seat installed in wrong direction):

 

 

There were some notes what other DI-6s (pictured on fields) used as decoys (false targets) at airfields to save combat planes from marauding Luftwaffe fighter-bombers and at this moment these are the only facts of DI-6 actions in Barbarossa (even in passive mode). But as always: Never Say Never

 

Pics source: http://aviarmor.net  

[John Thompson]

More DI-6 photos here:

http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewtopic_t_13010_start_0.html

 

John

[JWM]

Dimmy, I like the idea, that they were "dummy targets" - this explains also presence of I-5 nearby.

Cheers

J-W

[GrzeM]

14 hours ago, Dimmy said:

 

Considering those Barbarossa photos (DI-6, I-5) - they were taken at Vasilkov' 

Dimmy, is that possible that this is not Ukraine but Wasilków near Białystok in Poland (then, after 17th Sept. 1939 was in Soviet territory)?

[Dimmy]

10 hours ago, JWM said:

Dimmy, I like the idea, that they were "dummy targets" - this explains also presence of I-5 nearby.

Cheers

J-W

 

Hello J-W,

I think we're moving off-topic but I've found photographic evidence of using DI-6 (written off from 14 ShAP) and R-Zs as "dummy targets" in 1941 on airfield of 130 SBAP.

 

 

 

You may also see few tree branches as "inaccurate camouflage" as per Manual of creating "dummy" airfields. 

 

Pics credit: D. Karlenko 

 

[Dimmy]

9 hours ago, GrzeM said:

Dimmy, is that possible that this is not Ukraine but Wasilków near Białystok in Poland (then, after 17th Sept. 1939 was in Soviet territory)?

 

I'm sorry but the answer is rather "no". That Vasilkov school' scrap yard was later also photographed by KG54 stationed there. 

I've also found back side of one photo for you taken 19-Aug-41 by German troops with some description (note Kiev) on it:

 

 Image source: eBay

Edited March 9, 2017 by Dimmy
Pic source added

[JWM]

Dimmy - nice photos again. Many thanks for sharing! BTW - the DI-6 back photo description is "Jager Rata" - so it was mistaken with I-16 by someone, who made description.

Going further off topic (who will stopped us? ) - one of (many?) airplanes (besides Di-6) for which there is no too many photos really is Beriev KOR-1. There is plenty of photos of overall aluminium "red four", both on wheels and float (I wonder if it was the same machine in which they switch the u/c only). Do you have any painting scheme/photos from Barbarossa or in general from war use for this machine? I dont expect that it was used in Poland, but what about Finland Winter War? Was it use so much limited, that photos are scare? I bought the A-model kit together with Di-6, both are waiting for finding some more infos...

Cheers

J-W

 

[Dimmy]

55 minutes ago, JWM said:

BTW - the DI-6 back photo description is "Jager Rata" - so it was mistaken with I-16 by someone, who made description.

 

It was 137 Infanterie Division so I think it was OK for infantry soldiers. 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

I dont expect that it was used in Poland, but what about Finland Winter War?

 

Continuation War only 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

Was it use so much limited, that photos are scare?

 

It was very rare aircraft. Just 6 planes on Baltic Sea, 5 planes - on Black Sea. 

 

1 hour ago, JWM said:

Do you have any painting scheme/photos from Barbarossa or in general from war use for this machine?

 

Just a few pics, unfortunately  

 

This one force-landed behind Finnish frontline at Summer 1941 and was found by Finns one year later:

 

 

Pic source: http://forum.axishistory.com

 

And this one has been captured by Germans at Ust'-Luga (Baltic area):

 

 

 

Source: eBay via scalemodels.ru

 

 

 

[GrzeM]

10 hours ago, Dimmy said:

 

I'm sorry but the answer is rather "no". That Vasilkov school' scrap yard was later also photographed by KG54 stationed there. 

I've also found back side of one photo for you taken 19-Aug-41 by German troops with some description (note Kiev) on it:

 

 

8 hours ago, Dimmy said:

 

It was 137 Infanterie Division so I think it was OK for infantry soldiers. 

 

 

I still have some doubts. While on 19th August 1941 that Ukrainian Vasilkiv has been already in German hands (EDIT: i've checked historical maps), the 137 Infantry Division was part of the Army Group Center and in 1941 went exactly through Białystok (that Polish Wasilków is suburb of Białystok) to the outskirts of Moscow (Viazhma), definitely not the Ukraine!

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Infanteriedivisionen/137ID-R.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by GrzeM
Confirmed that Ukrainian Vasilkiv was in German hand on 19th August 1941

[Graham Boak]

It is very tempting to suggest that the photos of the KOR-1 actually show the same example.  Otherwise it is a very odd position to find them both, and both without engines.

[Dimmy]

4 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

I still have some doubts. Not only on 19th August 1941 Kiev area was still in Soviet hands, also the 137 Infantry Division was part of the Army Group Center and in 1941 went exactly through Białystok (that Polish Wasilków is suburb of Białystok) to the outskirts of Moscow (Viazhma), definitely not the Ukraine!

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Infanteriedivisionen/137ID-R.htm

 

Sorry, but actually Vasilkov has been occupied by Germans on 31 July 1941 (source: History of Vasilkov town, https://vasilkovsecret.wordpress.com/past/war/ ) so 19th August is not wrong at all.

 

Yes, I know what 137th was at Viaz'ma but (unfortunately for us) eBay seller marked those photos as "from 137 Infanterie Division Album" so I just can suggest what probably photographer later has been transferred into 137th.

[JWM]

Many thanks, Dimmy. I did not know somehow that KOR-1 was of so small numbers. It is likely dur to fact, that I knew this type from very early years of interesting in aiplanes. So it looks that no chane for other than "red 4 "... I is a pitty.

Cheers

J-W

[Dimmy]

5 minutes ago, JWM said:

Many thanks, Dimmy. I did not know somehow that KOR-1 was of so small numbers. It is likely dur to fact, that I knew this type from very early years of interesting in aiplanes. So it looks that no chane for other than "red 4 "... I is a pitty.

 

Or this one (just in case):

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dimmy]

51 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

 

 

GrzeM,

 

Here is a link for some pictures from "137 Infanterie Division Album" (you will see it as title on web page):

 

http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php?category_id=650&parent_id=499

 

As I wrote before, this Vasilkov school scrapyard later in 1941 has been photographed by KG54 staff and that KG54 photo Album has been for sale via eBay at (http://cgi.ebay.de/Fotoalbum-Kampfgeschwader54-Luftwaffe-Bodencrew-Flieger_W0QQitemZ370203314890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMilitaria?hash=item5631d64aca&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A4|65%3A10|39%3A1|240%3A1309|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200)

This Album is not online anymore but photos from it available among others at this link: 

 

http://www.avia-n-aero.ru/photo.php?category_id=499&parent_id=499   

 

Hope you'll find it interesting.

 

Source: http://avia-n-aero.ru

[JWM]

Dimmy - many thanks ! I know it - this is on experimantal ("Opytnyj") one...

Cheers

J-W

[GrzeM]

Dimmy, thank you, this is very interesting. Those people who save pictures from German E-Bay really do a great job!!!

Thank you also for all your competent and informative answers.

Best reards!

G.

[Dimmy]

13 minutes ago, JWM said:

Dimmy - many thanks ! I know it - this is on experimantal ("Opytnyj") one...

Cheers

J-W

 

Most interesting are Black Sea' KOR-1s, because they were used in combat in Crimea (Sept 1941) as ground attack planes (one was shot down, another one damaged & force landed). Last of them was scrapped 03 Dec 1941 due to damage by German artillery.

 

3 minutes ago, GrzeM said:

Dimmy, thank you, this is very interesting. Those people who save pictures from German E-Bay really do a great job!!!

Thank you also for all your competent and informative answers.

Best reards!

G.

 

Glad to help!  

[JWM]

On 6.03.2017 at 10:00 PM, Dimmy said:

This is R-5 from 5th LBAP (Light Bomber Air Regiment). 

Source: A.Stepanov, "VVS RKKA in Polish campaign, 1939 / Unknown War" article from "Aviation History", 01-2001. 

Maybe this help you a little. 

Dimmy - thank you once again. On RFI I posted today my R-5 in that painting scheme.

Regards

J-W