Building/Painting/Masking Tutorial: Heller Citroen 15 CV

[David_64]

I recently finished building the Pocher Ducati Panigale and posted my progress on this site.

While doing so, I started realizing how good some of you are, and how much people like me can learn from you. For instance, one area where I really don't have much experience is painting and masking. As I progressed with the build, several of you provided many helpful suggestions. Somewhere along the way I decided that I wanted to learn how to paint properly, and some of you have already helped me gain invaluable initial experience.

Based on this experience, I thought it might be useful to start a public thread where I would build and especially paint a model seeking your advice how to do it. I would post detailed progress reports and pictures as I did with the Ducati, asking for your assessment of progress and input along the way. The thread would thus function as an open classroom for people in my situation: those who want to learn, but need some help from the experienced ones.

For the experienced ones, this may be utterly mundane from the build point of view, but it may be satisfying from the coaching/mentoring point of view. You could also have a good laugh when I really mess something up!!! (I promise to disclose it).

I chose a simple small model to do this: the Heller Citroen 15 CV.

I'll start posting some initial progress soon.

[Codger]

David, while I laud your enterprise, I have a different view on what would be most helpful to you. it is your subject matter's scale.

i am a proponent of the idea that it is easier to learn on a larger canvas than 1/24 or 1/16. With smaller models it is particularly difficult for the less experienced painter to learn techniques like body prep, priming, masking and even coverage. You generally shoot primer and one color paint and hope for even gloss. or apply clear.

On a larger scale, one can more easily see the effects of various grits of paper, coats of primer and evenness of color coverage. I submit that the 1/8 Traction Avant would be an excellent and not very expensive training tool. It's also a hell of a nice model when done, even if you choose a simple single color scheme. There have been several nice builds on here of this kit. You would get plenty of help and support from experienced guys if you sought it.

I'll contribute to your project which ever way you go but honestly think this would be most helpful to you.

C

[David_64]

The first part to do is the engine….

I assembled and airbrushed part of it.

Note that this is the very first time I paint a model with an airbrush. So, no jokes please!!!!!

Here's the result:

Some comments/experiences:

1. This is 1/24 size model and I have to say that I find that the many very little pieces can be quite fiddly to handle. I put a tooth pick next to the engine, so you get a sense for its size. I found it almost impossible to properly paint the belts in the black color.

2. I am not too happy with this result: the paint is not very even and is generally too thick. On the other hand, not a total failure for a first attempt with an airbrush.

3. One thing that I experienced immediately is how much work goes into cleaning an airbrush. I am starting to wonder whether for the smaller inside pieces it would not be more efficient to just use a spray can. Problem is that it's not always possible to find the right color in a spray can.

4. I decided to use zero-paints for all parts of this model. I am already asking myself whether this was not a bit naive. I found this paint to be quite aggressive in terms of vapors and odor, and not easy to clean off the airbrush. I used zero-paint airbrush cleaner for this purpose: what a smell! My wife was complaining about it in the living room, which is a floor up from where I was working!!!!

5. Maybe I need a mix of cans, acrylic airbrush paint and I should just use zero-paints for the body of the car. If this is a better way of proceeding than using zero-paints for everything: what a waste of all those colors I just bought!!!!

[David_64]

David, while I laud your enterprise, I have a different view on what would be most helpful to you. it is your subject matter's scale.

i am a proponent of the idea that it is easier to learn on a larger canvas than 1/24 or 1/16. With smaller models it is particularly difficult for the less experienced painter to learn techniques like body prep, priming, masking and even coverage. You generally shoot primer and one color paint and hope for even gloss. or apply clear.

On a larger scale, one can more easily see the effects of various grits of paper, coats of primer and evenness of color coverage. I submit that the 1/8 Traction Avant would be an excellent and not very expensive training tool. It's also a hell of a nice model when done, even if you choose a simple single color scheme. There have been several nice builds on here of this kit. You would get plenty of help and support from experienced guys if you sought it.

I'll contribute to your project which ever way you go but honestly think this would be most helpful to you.

C

Codger,

I am delighted that you are prepared to chip in and help on this. As you know, I am totally in awe about your work on the Rolls.

You almost read my mind!!!!

Have a look at my first comment: these little pieces are very difficult to handle.

Problem is: I already bought all the paint for it!!!!

Silly me.

[David_64]

On the other hand, the 1/8 Traction Avant is the same car, thus same color scheme….. so I can still use the paints I bought….

Mmmmm…… pondering….. decisions, decisions, decisions…

[Borez]

Interesting thread. I'm still learning too ( only on my fourth model ) but I find these forums invaluable for picking up the skills and tips needed. It's like reverse engineering here: How have they done that? How does it look that way? Why have they done that? Why isn't mine looking like theirs? What are they using to make that etc. etc.

I've learned and absorbed a ton of information over the last few months though and my skills have improved tenfold but it's still a big learning curve.

I mean, some of the guys on here are incredibly skilled and constantly wow me with their work, but that's the benchmark. That's where I want to be.

Also I always have been and always will be a firm believer in utterly dropping myself in at the deep end and seeing how far I can swim before I drown though. I just find it's the best way to learn.

I'll follow this thread eagerly. Especially for the advice from others.

[MetroRacing]

For 1/24 I'd only bother spraying the body and chassis parts. The rest I'd brush paint. I've been building 1/24 scale cars on and off for over a decade and have never once felt the need to go and buy an airbrush. I use generic or matched spray paint for the body colour and humbrol or Revell paint tins for engines, interior etc.

I do disagree with codger about 1/24 being too small for learning techniques. If you want to learn airbrushimg techniques then yes I'd plumb for something larger, but building paint layers, sanding, colour sanding and polishing can all be learnt the same. Though a larger model would likely make it easier to pick up as trying to colour sand without going through the paint isn't easy with only small panels to work on. However that's what makes you learn.

My method for painting a car body is first to clean up any mold lines lightly with a diamond file and then 400 grit sandpaper. Then fill any defects and sand with 400 grit.

Then prime with a mist coat to check if I'm happy with the clean up process. If I am then another heavier coat of primer, which I then sand back with 400 grit to even the paint off.

Then after wiping off any dust I put down the first coat of paint. Sand with 400 and apply the second coat. Wet sand with 800 wet and dry paper and put down the final coat of paint. Now depending on whether I got a good even cover with the first coat I sometimes move straight onto the wet and dry and final coat. And sometimes I've had to add another 400 grit step. It depends and varies with each body shape, style and whether you're having a good day lol.

When I've got a good even paint finish I then apply any decals that are required and then once they are fully dry, I mist on a layer of clear coat. I gently sand it with 2000 grit wet and dry paper and then put down a final coat of clear.

After that I leave the body to fully cure for at least a week and then mask up for detail painting for moulded on trim and the like.

I hope that is more helpful than confusing haha

Ashley

[cmatthewbacon]

I'd certainly quibble that the best part of £150 is " a not very expensive training tool": YMMV, obviously.

I think 1/24 cars are _perfectly_ paintable with an airbrush: I just wouldn't use one for all of it. Rather than re-typing the whole thing, this:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234956647-matts-tips-for-painting-cars/

Is everything I can tell you about how I recommend painting the bodies of cars.

As for the interior parts, I use a combination of a few Tamiya spray cans for (mostly) black -- a can of semi gloss black is a basic, and it helps to have a rubber black and NATO black as well for variety. Humbrol Chrome Silver is ace, as is flat aluminium (56) and Metalcote Steel and Polished aluminium. Everything else I primer with either Halfords grey primer or Tamiya Fine Surface Primer in grey or white, depending on the intended final colour and whether I want a very smooth or slightly textured finish (eg for leather/cloth). For carpets I have a can of Plastikote Velvet (mine's a vile reddy-pink, but other colours are available), which goes on to the masked tub/floor before applying the overall primer to the whole part.

The majority of detail parts I brush paint with either Citadel/Games Workshop water based acrylics or Vallejo, also water based. Not as smelly -- though the Plastikote Velvet more than makes up for it.

If your wife can smell you painting one floor up, that suggests that your extraction isn't as efficient as it might be. I'd really be looking at some kind of spray/paint booth if you're going to do much airbrushing, and make sure you have a GOOD mask (and maybe one for her!). 3M do some excellent paint/vapour/dust masks for about £20-£25. They are a worthwhile investment in your future health...

bestest,

M.

[Codger]

On the other hand, the 1/8 Traction Avant is the same car, thus same color scheme….. so I can still use the paints I bought….

Mmmmm…… pondering….. decisions, decisions, decisions…

Just DO it.

Here's why; Both Ashley and Matthew have every right to disagree with me. But the key is they both have extensive experience working at this scale. And they both turn out exquisitely painted examples. You created this thread as a neophyte hoping to learn the techniques. That's why I feel the larger scale will be more beneficial and an easier learning curve.

And Matthew, I feel a man that has spent and built the Pocher Ducati Panigale is not phased by the cost of a 150 Pound model. Especially when he can obviously produce an excellent result.

Another factor to consider David is that you do NOT want to airbrush the body of so large a vehicle. You do not get enough material down and it's difficult to avoid 'stripes'. Spray cans are the weapon of choice. You can certainly use the AB on parts like the chassis, interior parts and engine so you will get a well-rounded education.

My first most basic recommendation is that you use lacquers exclusively. They dry faster and allow handling, sanding and finishing more quickly. Plus they lay down in thinner coats than enamels which gives more control for the less experienced.

All of the experienced builders and painters have their own reliable methods for this and differing methods all can produce excellent results. You can experiment on a large canvas and find what works for you. Striping and starting over is to be expected while this process takes hold. Don't expect a concours-winning paint job out of the box. relax and enjoy the learning process.

By example, there's as much paint on this one fender than a whole 1/24 scale model. Which do you feel would be easier to learn on?

[roymattblack]

As an add-on to what Mr C is saying, yes, learning paint techniques is definitely easier with a bigger model.

However, the 1/8 Traction Avant is a SERIOUSLY complicated model.

My build thread of the beastie is here if anyone hasn't seen it or is interested.

For the 'paint' bit, have a peep about half-way down page 5:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234977671-18-citroen-traction-avant/

Another point...

Not every modeller has an airbrush, which is ideal for smaller scales.

Brush painting - waste of time unless you are DaVinci.

For 1/8 stuff, an airbrush is just about the slowest way on the planet, of laying on incredibly thin (and easy to damage) paint coats.

I know there will be those who disagree, but all my models - even the small ones - are painted with Halfords rattle-cans.

If I can offer any help or advice here, let me know.

Roy.

Edited May 5, 2016 by roymattblack

[vontrips]

David, you mention the amount of work cleaning the airbrush; I take you didn't go for my recommended Badger Universal 360 then? All you have to do is run thinner through it and remove two parts for the tip! ;-)

Some good points raised and I'm on the fence as to my thoughts as both scales have their pro's and cons. The big Citroen is a daunting project for the inexperienced. It's a good way to learn many modelling skills, but is so complex just learning to paint it becomes a minor issue. There are simpler big kits to tackle. I'd recommend the '65 Corvette which has a simple bodyshell - unless you open the doors up like Roy!!!

Edited May 5, 2016 by vontrips

[MetroRacing]

I think we can all agree that a simple large scale kit that builds easy would be the best to learn painting skills.

What about the revell 1/12 Shelby Mustang? Goes together a treat and is found cheap online. It's also small enough that an airbrush can be used on the smaller assemblies like engine and interior parts. Brush paint the small details and even some small parts if you're so inclined but rattle cans are really a must for the large parts.

Ashley

[David_64]

Interesting thread. I'm still learning too ( only on my fourth model ) but I find these forums invaluable for picking up the skills and tips needed. It's like reverse engineering here: How have they done that? How does it look that way? Why have they done that? Why isn't mine looking like theirs? What are they using to make that etc. etc.

I've learned and absorbed a ton of information over the last few months though and my skills have improved tenfold but it's still a big learning curve.

I mean, some of the guys on here are incredibly skilled and constantly wow me with their work, but that's the benchmark. That's where I want to be.

Also I always have been and always will be a firm believer in utterly dropping myself in at the deep end and seeing how far I can swim before I drown though. I just find it's the best way to learn.

I'll follow this thread eagerly. Especially for the advice from others.

That's the spirit!!!! This is exactly why I'm doing this thread… I wanna learn from the experts and getting them to give us beginners advice here is an efficient way of going about it. If more people join, each expert tip will benefit multiple people.

[David_64]

Friends and Tutors,

I am touched by all the friendly and extremely useful advice.

The biggest question I face now is whether to proceed with the 1/24 Citroen 15 CV, or go for another bigger model.

Here, I have to make a confession.

Prior to starting this thread and during my Ducati Panigale Build, I already painted the body of the 1/24 receiving tremendous advice from one of you, but in private. After lots of sanding and layers, the result was the following:

I thought this was a rather encouraging result for a first try, but there were problems: the paint on the ridge along the roof on the right hand side was too rough, I burnt through the paint while polishing on some of the little nobs, and micro-gloss got stuck in the panel lines.

After this experience, I stripped the whole thing, with the intention of building/painting the entire Citroen.

But I have to admit that, now that I have started it, I realize the pieces are so small that I am going to spend more time fiddling than learning.

So, I am going to have to give this some more thought.

Would the Tamiya Honda F1 RA273 be a better option? It's 1/12 scale and I already have it.

Advice please!

[David_64]

David, you mention the amount of work cleaning the airbrush; I take you didn't go for my recommended Badger Universal 360 then? All you have to do is run thinner through it and remove two parts for the tip! ;-)

Some good points raised and I'm on the fence as to my thoughts as both scales have their pro's and cons. The big Citroen is a daunting project for the inexperienced. It's a good way to learn many modelling skills, but is so complex just learning to paint it becomes a minor issue. There are simpler big kits to tackle. I'd recommend the '65 Corvette which has a simple bodyshell - unless you open the doors up like Roy!!!

I've bought a Harder & Steenbeck Infinity Two in One. Lots of little piece to clean. I now understand better when one of you said to me in private that airbrushing had its own issues!!!!!

[David_64]

I'd certainly quibble that the best part of £150 is " a not very expensive training tool": YMMV, obviously.

I think 1/24 cars are _perfectly_ paintable with an airbrush: I just wouldn't use one for all of it. Rather than re-typing the whole thing, this:

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234956647-matts-tips-for-painting-cars/

Is everything I can tell you about how I recommend painting the bodies of cars.

As for the interior parts, I use a combination of a few Tamiya spray cans for (mostly) black -- a can of semi gloss black is a basic, and it helps to have a rubber black and NATO black as well for variety. Humbrol Chrome Silver is ace, as is flat aluminium (56) and Metalcote Steel and Polished aluminium. Everything else I primer with either Halfords grey primer or Tamiya Fine Surface Primer in grey or white, depending on the intended final colour and whether I want a very smooth or slightly textured finish (eg for leather/cloth). For carpets I have a can of Plastikote Velvet (mine's a vile reddy-pink, but other colours are available), which goes on to the masked tub/floor before applying the overall primer to the whole part.

The majority of detail parts I brush paint with either Citadel/Games Workshop water based acrylics or Vallejo, also water based. Not as smelly -- though the Plastikote Velvet more than makes up for it.

If your wife can smell you painting one floor up, that suggests that your extraction isn't as efficient as it might be. I'd really be looking at some kind of spray/paint booth if you're going to do much airbrushing, and make sure you have a GOOD mask (and maybe one for her!). 3M do some excellent paint/vapour/dust masks for about £20-£25. They are a worthwhile investment in your future health...

bestest,

M.

That link to your post is really useful.

I have a M3 mask and a spray booth.

A question: when you've painted the interior parts with the Tamiya spray cans, what type of glue do you use when you need to glue two already painted pieces together?

[vontrips]

That link to your post is really useful.

I have a M3 mask and a spray booth.

A question: when you've painted the interior parts with the Tamiya spray cans, what type of glue do you use when you need to glue two already painted pieces together?

David, you have to scrape the paint off any contact surfaces first. The aim is to get down the bare plastic and use your usual polystyrene adhesive. The trick is to keep the scraping to a minimum so it's within the joint line and not visable afterwards. Time spent looking at the contact surfaces and dry fitting is well spent for a good result!

[Codger]

Actually, Ashley and VT have made excellent recommendations for large scale 'learning tools' - better than my Avant suggestion. The 'Vette and Shelby are far less expensive and can become fine finished models when you become comfy with good paint.

And your first attempt at the black Avant is pretty darned good. Working bigger will definitely help you.

All the advice given so far is golden.

[cmatthewbacon]

That link to your post is really useful.

A question: when you've painted the interior parts with the Tamiya spray cans, what type of glue do you use when you need to glue two already painted pieces together?

Thanks, David... I should point out that everything I know about painting cars, I learned painting 1/24 scale cars. I'm happy to believe that there are different techniques needed for large scale models, so I think the best way to learn depends on what you want to do. If you're only going to build big models, then by all means start out with a big Shelby. But if you want to take advantage of the vastly greater range of subjects and "genres" of vehicle available in 1/24 or 1/25, then you might as well start the way you mean to go on!

It's perfectly possible to glue painted parts -- I usually do for say, attaching the seats to the floor. I use Bostik "Serious Glue" which isn't solvent based but provides a very strong bond (it's also good for attaching external chrome parts on a finished body).

As for airbrushing, the best advice I ever had was from the late, much-missed, Ted Taylor: "Remember, it's a _brush_, not a spraygun..."

bestest,

M.

[David_64]

Friends and Tutors,

For the time being, I think I am going to press on with this little Avant.

I'm looking at this philosophically: I am not going to learn everything on one model and with the little Avant, while perhaps not ideal for a first learning experience, I will learn certainly learn something. I had a close look at the big Avant built by Roy, but I don't think I am ready for that yet. If I had to start all over again, I would probably go for the Shelby. But I've bought the darn little thing and all the paint that goes with it.

Btw, I did something really stupid: I bought each color that is indicated as being required on the box in Zero-paints, not realizing that for two colors (red and orange) you only need a minute couple of dots on the battery. You see, this is already a lesson learnt with the little Avant: study carefully the whole thing, before rushing into buying stuff!!!!!

I'm going for an epic first build! Frankenstein style!

As soon as I as something half-decent to show, I'll post it.

[cmatthewbacon]

...the other thing to bear in mind is that Zero Paints are generally formulated to be used with a clear coat, as main body colours, for example. They won't get to a glossy stage without a clear coat, and are generally meant to finish up slightly rough as a base for the clear. If you're spraying them thick enough to look wet and smooth, then they're too thick. A battery is an ideal candidate for Humbrol or Tamiya rattle can semigloss black, rubber black or in some cases white primer, and then detail painting with Citadel Black, red and silver with an 00 brush...

bestest,

M.

[David_64]

I've detached all the pieces and organized them in jars according to color. I attached them to a double sided adhesive tape, organized by color (so that I can put them back in the correct color-coded jar). I primed the upper side of the pieces and left them to dry. When they were dry, I detached them from the sticky tape, turned them over, and then primed the other side. All the pieces are now primed and back in the correct jar. The next step is to take them out of their jars again, and repeat the same process for airbrushing them. By doing so, I can airbrush all those in the same color at once.

I thought proceeding like this is more efficient than having to change colors all the time as I progress through the build, especially because this Harder & Steinbeck appears to be high maintenance. Cleaning that zero-paint off is mean, nasty business. The smell of that airbrush cleaning product is something to experience.

I should have taken a pic of all this but forgot. Will do so, however, when I start again airbrushing the pieces.

All of this is extremely basic for anyone with experience, but useful to know for someone who hasn't ever done this.

Anyone who thinks I am going about it the wrong way, please speak up!

[David_64]

...the other thing to bear in mind is that Zero Paints are generally formulated to be used with a clear coat, as main body colours, for example. They won't get to a glossy stage without a clear coat, and are generally meant to finish up slightly rough as a base for the clear. If you're spraying them thick enough to look wet and smooth, then they're too thick. A battery is an ideal candidate for Humbrol or Tamiya rattle can semigloss black, rubber black or in some cases white primer, and then detail painting with Citadel Black, red and silver with an 00 brush...

bestest,

M.

...the other thing to bear in mind is that Zero Paints are generally formulated to be used with a clear coat, as main body colours, for example. They won't get to a glossy stage without a clear coat, and are generally meant to finish up slightly rough as a base for the clear. If you're spraying them thick enough to look wet and smooth, then they're too thick. A battery is an ideal candidate for Humbrol or Tamiya rattle can semigloss black, rubber black or in some cases white primer, and then detail painting with Citadel Black, red and silver with an 00 brush...

bestest,

M.

I think I should've bought zero-paint just for the body….. Another lesson already learnt!!!

If I get the chance tomorrow, I'll try to buy Tamiya cans for matt black and sea grey. With the gloss black I already have, that should cover most of the color I need. There is also a bit of green, but i've already done that with zero-paints (indeed too thick, see above), and I'll just continue with that.

I am expecting to receive a package from Hiroboy next monday, with an extra fine brush (and a scriber for deepening the panel lines).

[roymattblack]

All sounds good to me.

It does highlight the simplicity of using rattle cans though.

I literally paint each piece I need, as I go.

I use Halfords primers - grey, white and red.

All my other colours are Halfords too.

Yes, rattle cans aren't cheap, but when you consider the amount of paint in a can - 300ml for £6.50 - against 14ml in a tinlet for £2, they actually are VERY cheap.

The 500ml cans are even better value at £7.95.

All of my primers, clear coats, matt/satin/gloss black, ally, silver, gunmetal, chromes - are 500ml cans.

The equivalent paint in tinlets would be over £50!

Some people say (no - I'm not talking about the Stig) that rattle cans put on too much paint.

No they don't, if you spray lightly from about 10".

OK, you waste paint with overspray but actually, rattle cans last an age when you're just painting little car parts.

It takes a bit of practice, like anything else but I'm a rattle can convert.

And a bonus?

No waiting an age for paint to dry.

Car paints are dry in minutes with the aid of an old hairdryer.

I spend my time building.

Not waiting for paints to dry or faffing about cleaning equipment.

Just my two-pennorth.

Roy.

Edited May 5, 2016 by roymattblack

[colin]

You not really getting 300ml of paint in a tin though, most of the weight will be the propellant,not sure how much, someone online did work out what weight of paint is in a can, but I can't find it now