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Mark Mackenzie

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About Mark Mackenzie

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  1. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick, NO WHERE have I claimed that the documents are exclusively mine. I'm just asking for some common courtesy from you, and that is to quote the original source, which was NOT YOU despite what you might publicly claim. Below is a print-screen that I took of the original forum post and immediately below that is your post. If you can not read the small print I can re-post it at a larger size, but I note you had no trouble reading it at the time. Regards, Mark
  2. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    I'm not presuming anything. Here is the link to those exact documents (#63) in which YOU are a participant. Just because you RE-COPY them and RE-POST them does not obligate you from common courtesy and public decency. The same applies to the earlier documents that I originally posted on this forum and which you now quote.
  3. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    The source was a forum post from me a while ago, as are several documents that were referenced. Of course he doesn't have to quote the source, however common courtesy would have been appropriate. That happens, When someone re-posts another's research, work without reference to the original.
  4. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick, It would be nice if you would quote your sources. I posted that same document a while ago on this very forum as well as several of the other documents that you now quote. Regards, Mark
  5. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    With regard to your first post, you have NOT quoted any document in the archives accurately that I am aware of. I have seen the archive document that you refer to; it is NOT quoted accurately Furthermore, you have ADDED your own judgement which is where the distortion occurs. Post the document quoted correctly, i.e. word for word as it is reproduced in the archive file, then we can work from there. Otherwise what I have said stands true. With regard to the second post, it refers to YOU and MARK, where I am referring to a "judgement that can reasonably be expected from a majority without need for debate". The article written by Ian.H. was published before the National Archive documents became available with the "Tropical Land" scheme colour diagrams and other documentation. These same "Tropical Land" schemes were also at one time referred to as "Desert" schemes. These schemes were designed for Egypt, Aden and Iraq, where they were tested first. Egypt, Aden and Iraq are arid, desert countries. None of the schemes were "Mid Stone and Dark Green". This is NOT debatable it is a fact - all of this comes from the archives. It is not based on any assumption about the incorrect or otherwise use of a term.
  6. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick, Yes it can. It's called common sense. Cheers, Mark
  7. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Mark: Yes there were "Tropical Land Schemes" which I have quoted frequently before. NONE of these referred to a scheme of "Mid Stone/Dark Green" except in error. Nick has quoted some of these schemes in some of his posts. I have also pointed out that the term Tropical Scheme and Desert Scheme were used on one occasion interchangeably by RAE. Up until recently, the term "Tropical Land Scheme" referred to a colour scheme of Dark Earth and Mid Stone. That's the way it has always been verbally described by the RAF, whether or not it was documented. Nick: You are confusing the trials schemes with the adopted schemes, particularly with the "Tropical Schemes". To make it clear: RAE did the research and the Air Ministry did the orders. You have intertwined the two. I suspect you don't have access to the full set of documents, so what you have posted is distorted somewhat. Regards, Mark
  8. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick, It is not "apparently", neither is it an ambiguity. It is an acknowledged error. Yesterday I noticed whilst trawling thru the archives that the "tropical schemes", LT*, were also referred to as the "desert schemes" by RAE, on at least one documented instance. i.e the terms were used interchangeable Cheers, Mark
  9. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Graham: You're quoting the wrong Mark! I said nothing but I did notice the sky colour was the same tone as the lighter colour disruptive colour on the Beest.
  10. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick: I agree on the point regarding trialling .i.e. why trial if something was already accepted. I suspect the later trials were for Land Scheme and not Sea Scheme. Mark: Do you think that Mid-Stone / Dark Earth could be a possibility? Below is a copy of the 1935 drawing of the earlier, lighter colours. The drawing with darker colours is missing. Cheers, Mark
  11. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Mark, The ST2 (dark) scheme had Light Mediterranean Blue on the side contrasting with Dark Sea Green. I suspect this is a strong contrast. I have asked Nick about the contrast of these below, so would be interested as well to see the results. Cheers, Mark
  12. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Nick, What you have stated is not correct. The 16th August, 1938 AM letter requested "further camouflage trials" not that they "would be used", of LT2, LT3 in India, Far East and Iraq. There is a difference between would be used and would be trialled. The same letter stated that a version of C3A with lighter brown was to be trialled in Aden; this scheme was called "C3B" and had Dark Earth of C3A replaced by Dark Sand. Secondly: two versions of ST2 were trialled by 100TB in Singapore. In the first set of trials (results given to RAE on the 28th November 1936) the ST2 consisted of the original 1935 colours that I stated above. In the second set of trials (results above) the Sea Greens were replaced with the darker pair of colours. The blues remained unchanged between trials. I know this because I have copies of the dopes sent overseas for these trials. I would be interested in what you make of the reflectivities between Dark Sea Green and Light Mediterranean Blue? I suspect the contrast is great. Cheers, Mark
  13. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Mark, I spent the last couple of hours going thru the Archive files. The results are: In February 1937, RAE dispatched camouflage dopes for Tropical Scheme, ST2 (dark) to Singapore for evaluation against an earlier scheme called Tropical Scheme ST2. The evaluation was done by 100TB Squadron. This was a repeat of trials conducted the previous year of ST2 against the Temperate Sea Scheme, S2. The colours were: Tropical Scheme ST2 (dark): Extra Dark Sea Green, Dark Sea Green, Dark Mediterranean Blue and Light Mediterranean Blue; Tropical Scheme ST2: Dark Sea Green, Light Sea Green, Dark Mediterranean Blue and Light Mediterranean Blue; Temperate Scheme S2: Dark Sea Grey, Dark Sea Green, Light Sea Grey and Light Sea Green. On 21st August 1937, the results of these trials were received by RAE. The conclusion was that ST2(dark) was recommended for "introduction to the service" by the commanding officer 100TB Squadron. On the 16th May 1938, the Air Ministry decided that the tropical scheme would be standardised for Singapore. Copies of all this communication are reproduced below. Cheers, Mark
  14. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Attached is another photo and drawing from Geoffrey Thomas' article on Far East Camouflage in SAM Feb 1994. The photo is said to be taken several months before the war and so the scheme may pre-date this order of July/Sept 1939. Cheers, Mark
  15. 36 Sqn Vildebeests - Serial/Code Letter Tie-ups

    Mark, I could only guess what the colours were but on the 15th September 1939 the RAE were asked by Army Headquarters, India, to suggest colour schemes for vehicles and tentage. They responded with a letter containing colour diagrams of lorries and tents showing two different colour schemes. These were: Light Sand and Dark Earth scheme for use on the North West Frontier. Dark Green and Light Earth scheme for use in districts containing much vegetation and in brackets,' grass, jungle, shrub or forest'. So as late as September 1939, a colour scheme of Light Earth and Dark Green was suggested for Army Vehicles in the jungles of India. The same two colour schemes (with lighter shades for lower wings) were also proposed by RAE for aircraft operating on the NWF in February 1936 at a conference held by AM on camouflage. Cheers, Mark
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