JV 44 Dora colour schemes

[Moofles]

Hello all, im currently working on a Fw-190 D9, and it will be finished in the colour scheme of JV 44 Red 13, however, with my one searches on the interwebs i have found that the aircraft appears to be an earlier production D-9 with the unblown standard canopy,, and what appears to be a differnt RLM paint scheme to the other Doras in the circus, the standard circus RLM scheme is reported to be (and back up with photo evidence) RLM 76/82/83.

My question is thus what is the colour scheme of RED 13

It apprears to be along the lines of RLM 74/83/76.

Any help any one can provide would be very very helpful, however i am not really after speculation,im more after some factual knowledge on this one, all the same all help wanted.

Cheers.

Moof

[tango98]

Deleted - see edited post below.

Dave

Edited April 24, 2011 by tango98

[andym]

Ignore

Edited April 24, 2011 by andym

[andym]

Hi Moof,

Red 13 was finished in an upper splinter of 75/83 and the front portion of the spinner was yellow although there is some compelling evidence that it was white. It featured a flat-sided canopy and the mottling along the fuselage sides was a mixture of 75 & 83 with the darker areas likely in 81. Under surfaces and sides of fin/fuselage were 76 although over-painted in red while the white stripes were unevenly spaced.

Claimed by some sources to be the aircraft of Klaus Faber with the W.Nr. 213240, unpublished documentary evidence indicates that the actual W.Nr. was 400240.

FWIW, this protection flight was never known as either the 'Papegai Staffel' nor the 'Galland Circus'. However, amongst the pilot's it was known as the ''Sachsenberg Schwarm' after the name of its leader, Heinz Sachsenberg.

HTH

Dave

Some interesting reading here:

http://www.japo.eu/discussion.php?f=5

Also interested in suggestion that spinner was white, I haven't heard that before?

Regards,

Andy

[tango98]

Hi Moof,

Red 13 was finished in an upper splinter of 75/83 and the front portion of the spinner was yellow although there is some compelling evidence that it was white. It featured a flat-sided canopy and the mottling along the fuselage sides was a mixture of 75 & 83 with the darker areas likely in 81. Under surfaces and sides of fin/fuselage were 76 although over-painted in red while the white stripes were unevenly spaced.

Claimed by some sources to be the aircraft of Klaus Faber with the W.Nr. 213240, some unpublished documentary evidence indicates that the actual W.Nr. was 210240. For an in-depth discussion on this particular D-9 I think that you will find the discussion on Red 13 of interest :http://www.japo.eu/discussion.php?f=5#wnrred13

FWIW, this protection flight was never known as either the 'Papegai Staffel' nor the 'Galland Circus'. However, amongst the pilot's it was known as the ''Sachsenberg Schwarm' after the name of its leader, Heinz Sachsenberg.

I see that Andy beat me to it with the link to the Japo discussion!

HTH

Dave

Edited April 24, 2011 by tango98

[andym]

Perhaps should also add that it had the five part gun cowl.

Andy (who's off to bed now as it's 12.25 am here!)

[rowmk9]

That JaPo discussion is very interesting. I've only skim read it so far cause it's late but it makes for good reading. I really must save up for these Japo books!

[Moofles]

ah brilliant a gold mine of infomation, cheers for the link.

[Stonar]

For what it's worth I modelled this one a while ago. I read,amongst other things,whichever of JaPo's and Crandall's books were available at the time and plumped for an 82/83 upper surface scheme. I think in the end I just thought it would look better than 75/83 and I don't remember any hard evidence either way. That may say something about my memory. I just wondered if there was any solid evidence for a 75/83 scheme,I wouldn't mind building an "alternative" version.

Cheers

Steve

Ooops bit of a boo boo,I was thinking of "Red 1". That's the one I did in 82/83,sorry for any confusion. I only noticed whem I dragged it down to compare with the Zoukei-Mura Ta152 I'm building.....sporadically.

Steve

Edited April 26, 2011 by Stonar

[Troy Smith]

At some point I found this image online, which is a colour pics of one of these planes, no idea which one, but someone may know as I think only one ended up being photographed in a aircraft dump. Not very clear or much use for colours, but may be of interest

cheers

T

[Moofles]

Thats an incredible photo, notice the tail of the ME 262 sticking up, as for the colour scheme is does start to look like all evidence points towards a 82/83 upper surface with 76 sides with mottling of 81/82/83. cheers for all the info, keep it comeing, really intresting thread.

[andym]

I had seen the colour pic above and have another one, I think of the same aircraft, that I downloaded from net:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/P...v44colorwj2.jpg

Both show yellow colouring to spinner which is why I was surprised at suggestion they could be white! The more I look at pics of JV44 Airfield Protection Flight the more it becomes clear that each aircraft was quite different from each other in colurs and details.

HTH

Andy

Edited April 26, 2011 by andym

[Troy Smith]

I had seen the colour pic above and have another one, I think of the same aircraft, that I downloaded from net:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac144/P...v44colorwj2.jpg

Both show yellow colouring to spinner which is why I was surprised at suggestion they could be white! The more I look at pics of JV44 Airfield Protection Flight the more it becomes clear that each aircraft was quite different from each other in colurs and details.

HTH

Andy

too good not too add the

oh, for a nice profile view of the side as well!

got to be the same plane, note position of prop blades. I'll try find out which one later.

edit:-

Looking at the Dopras of Galland's Circus, i think this is Red 1, W.Nr 600424, at Munchen -Riem airfield.

cheers

T

Edited April 26, 2011 by Troy Smith

[Moofles]

great looking pictures, but still no proof that the aircraft in the picture is RED 13. i have recieved lots of infomation on this aircraft (RED 13) such a intresting story.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Moofles

[FalkeEins]

no, it's 'Red 4' ....and Crandall in his Dora book Vol II provides photographic evidence that the WNr. is 210240 - which Japo with their pseudo-scientific approach seemed to have ruled out. 'Red 13' was a 76/82/83 machine

Edited April 26, 2011 by FalkeEins

[FalkeEins]

That JaPo discussion is very interesting. I've only skim read it so far cause it's late but it makes for good reading.

..re-reading this thread, my post and some refs...I hadn't realised there was so much 'controversy' regarding this machine. In view of Dave's comments I assume he hasn't seen the 'new' photo published in Crandall Vol II - the WNr can be seen to be 210240, which leaves us with a 76/82/83 scheme. This thus makes the Japo discussion rather a waste of time (since they'd already ruled out 210240. Crandall concludes the document they based this assumption on was erroneous..)

Edited April 26, 2011 by FalkeEins

[Moofles]

ok..this is getting even more intresting, so what the hell was the colour scheme of this aircraft, we can with some certainty that its an older D-9 with standard non blown canopy and the plane has been through the mill so to speak, i have had some fantastic documentation passed onto me suggestion with some degree of accuracy that the scheme is indeed 76/82/83 are we as ''experten'' prepared to say with some degree of certainty that the scheme is 76/82/83, or could it just possibly be 76/74/83 as suggest byt he colour profile in my first post...still deeply intresting discussion.

ah just read the above edited post, since the WNr number is what it is then the coulour scheme is as stated 76/82/83

pity, would of been good with a 76/74/83 scheme, somewhat different.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Moofles

[petetheplane]

I just wonder whether these photos are not off somebody's diorama and they are a bit of a spoof, what with the lack of depth-of-field on the trees.