Sea Harrier FRS.1 and FA.2 - What Length?!

[wellsprop]

I would hope this is a simple question, but it seems not.

 

What length are the Sea Harrier variants?

 

Airfix can't decide, their 1/72 FRS1 says the Harrier was 47 ft 10.8 inches.

 

Their 1/72 FA2 gives the dimensions of 46 ft 5 inches and their 1/48 FA2 gives a length of 46 ft 6 inches.

 

The FA2 was longer than the FRS1.

 

Help!

Ben

[Dave Swindell]

30 minutes ago, wellsprop said:

The FA2 was longer than the FRS1.

Was it? It might have been from tip of the radome to the tail, but if you factor in the pitot probe into overall length I suspect the FRS1 was longer.

[Graham Boak]

Given that the FRS2 was an FRS1 with an extra fuselage section, I think there's no "might" about it.  However the pitot probe is a good point.

[NG899]

Away from base until the weekend but I’ll get back to you then Ben. The pitot is a complicating factor and don’t forget the FA.2 had an extension plug of 13.25ins added behind the wings.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

[wellsprop]

12 hours ago, Dave Swindell said:

It might have been from tip of the radome to the tail, but if you factor in the pitot probe into overall length I suspect the FRS1 was longer.

 

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

However the pitot probe is a good point.

 

10 hours ago, NG899 said:

The pitot is a complicating factor and don’t forget the FA.2 had an extension plug of 13.25ins added behind the wings.

 

 

Good point about the pitot, that's probably where the confusion is coming in!

 

Aircraft manufacturers wouldn't usually define the length of an aircraft (which would be shown in the top-level General Arrangement drawing) including its pitot. It'd be nice to see some manufacturer drawings for the Harrier!

[PhantomBigStu]

Pitot or not pitot is an important question, which there are at least three examples (Italeri B-58, Miage 2000, Hobbyboss Rafle) of it makers getting it wring and ending up with squashed jets as result

[tempestfan]

Pat Lloyd drew the 1 as 201mm including pitot over the longitudinal datum, as did Mike Keep. This is 1447mm in full scale, or 47.48 ft.

Edit: Found SAM 20/3, in which Mark Rolfe drew the 2 as 204mm.

Edited February 6 by tempestfan

[Dave Swindell]

1 hour ago, wellsprop said:

Aircraft manufacturers wouldn't usually define the length of an aircraft (which would be shown in the top-level General Arrangement drawing) including its pitot. It'd be nice to see some manufacturer drawings for the Harrier!

As you're intimating, length can be quoted in various ways, unless you know the measurement reference points and aircraft attitude you need to treat the measurement with caution.

I'd expect the G/A drawing to have dimension reference lines which would show whether the measurement was being taken from the pitot tip (overall length) or the radome tip (fuselage length)

Purpose and use of the drawing could also affect the length being quoted - +a drawing for the end user would likely be based on the ground line and include  the pitot so they can make sure the hangar is long enough to prevent the pitot being squashed when the door is closed, whereas a drawing for the factory floor would likely be based on the horizontal datum along and from which all constructional dimensions will be measured.

I'd say the Airfix dimensions are taken from end user overall dimensions, which may vary slightly depending on equipment fit (eg, fit a different tail light with a bigger lense cover and the overall length is 1" more, but the airframe dimensions haven't changed).

[NG899]

BAe GA drawing of FRS.1 states 549.31 inches from tip of radome to end of the rear RWR antenna, the measurement taken along the fuselage datum line. The pitot extended a further 22.71 inches beyond the radome tip, angled down 3-degrees below the datum.

 

I think I have the FA.2 GAs in a file at home. Will look at the weekend, when not working.

 

Hope that helps for a start.

 

Cheers

 

Nick

Edited February 7 by NG899

[CT7567]

13 hours ago, PhantomBigStu said:

Pitot or not pitot is an important question, which there are at least three examples (Italeri B-58, Miage 2000, Hobbyboss Rafle) of it makers getting it wring and ending up with squashed jets as result

Add to this list Hasegawa's 1:72 Sea Harrier FRS.1 - which apparently confined the proportional issue to the forward fuselage, because the GR.3 with the same aft fuselage & wing doesn't seem to have the same problem.

[NG899]

Sadly, my FA.2 refs do NOT include BAe drawings for the FA.2. 

 

BAe - FRS.1 drawings provide the 549.31 inches plus 22.71 inches extra for the pitot dimensions. Total 572.02 inches, 47ft 8ins.

 

World Air Power Journal No.41, Sea Harrier - Cites: FRS.1 = 47ft 7 ins (i.e. they include the pitot); FA.2 = 46ft 6ins. 

WAPJ #41 also provides (radome) folded lengths: FRS.1 = 41ft 9ins; FA.2 = 43ft 2ins, which accounts for the FA.2's 13.75ins fuselage extension just after of the wing.

In the absence of BAe FA.2 drawings, I'd be happy to work with their figures.

 

Note: the FA.2's rounder radome is about 9ins shorter than the sharper one on the FRS.1.  Measuring models (for ease/speed) FRS.1 = 4ft 8ins approx, FA.2 = 3ft 11ins approx.

 

Hope this helps rather than opens another can of worms.

 

Cheers

 

Nick