A question for someone who understands the Soviet AFV designation system

[KRK4m]

These are two self-propelled howitzers from the 1970s, usually known as 2S1 Gvozdika and 2S3 Akatsiya.

What does 2S mean in the symbol? Because it's definitely not a self-propelled howitzer, looking at the 2A3 Kondensator, 2B1 Oka and 2S12 Sani.

Less common are the designations SO-152 for Akatsiya and SAU-122 for Gvozdika. Why is Gvozdika classified as Samokhodnaya Artilleriyskaya Ustanovka (self-propelled artillery piece), and Akatsiya as what? What does SO mean? Samokhodnoye Orudye? Why not SAU-152 ?

It's good that at least in tanks, IFVs and APCs it is more transparent

Cheers

Michael

[pigsty]

That's the GRAU system.  It's explained here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Missile_and_Artillery_Directorate.  Now, I'm not saying it makes complete sense; but I do sort of understand it.

[KRK4m]

In theory, the GRAU system should be unambiguous, and 2S means a self-propelled howitzer. But 2A is a towed howitzer and 2B is a towed mortar. So why do both nuclear mastodons (2A3 Kondensator and 2B1 Oka) have designations suggesting they lack their own propulsion?

But for today what is more important to me is the differentiation between Gvozdika and Akatsiya - why is one SAU and the other SO? And what does the SO mean?

And this is no longer the GRAU nomenclature.

Cheers

Michael

[Old pro]

Time! It could be as simple as that the Kondensator and Oka could be before the S for self propelled was a thing and never got changed, as for the 2S1 and 2S3 the SAU and SO designations are old before the GRAU system was known ? SA would indicate self propelled artillery with the U denoting Amphibious but that’s a guess. SO would indicate self propelled gun, why the difference? You could try here.

https://irp.fas.org/world/Russia/sovmil-glossary.pdf

 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Old pro
Grammer

[KRK4m]

Thanks for the link to this glossary, although (as I was afraid) I didn't find anything in it. I.e. there are 7 expansions of the SO abbreviation:

1. "Sergo Ordzhonikidze" class steam locomotive
2. company medical aid section
3. secret section
4. concentration of fire
5. outposts
6. rifle squad
7. construction section

You see, none of them fit the howitzer. And the abbreviation SAU does not appear in the dictionary at all.

But it appears in the (generally stupid) Wikipedia - on Russian websites of self-propelled guns (including the American M109 or the older SU-85/100) SAU is Samokhodno-Artilleriyskaya Ustanovka = self-propelled artillery device. It has nothing to do with swimming. But I still don't know what this SO in Akatsiya's designation means...

Cheers

Michael

[Old pro]

I think you are looking for clarity, where none exists, what’s the difference between an SAU self propelled artillery unit and an SO self propelled gun, none! It’s just a description, why does the Tunguska go under 2S6 and 2K22 and not ZSU 30 4? Even upgraded Shilkas with missiles still retain the ZSU prefix, same with the 2S38, why not ZSU 57 1? Why does the Pantsir receive none of these, or the S 300 system (although you could argue that the S 300 is a system and not a missile but the same holds true for the Tunguska and Pantsir)

I‘m sure politics played a part, the 2S3 was designed before the 2S1 shortly after Khrushchev had been deposed but his policy of wanting missiles over guns would still be pervasive, later when the 2S1 was developed, it was maybe easier to get a specific description rather than generic.

This is all speculation and I hope you find an answer but I wouldn’t bust a blood vessel over it, there maybe no rhyme or reason to it, during WW 2 soviet self propelled artillery received the same SU prefix as assault guns. The only other reference to SAU is as part of a battery and not a single vehicle, A 222 Bereg describes as a control vehicle and 6 SAU units of guns, or the obscure SAU SU 57B and SU 76D. SAU and SO seem to be more a description rather than a designation.

[Dmitriy1967]

Hello

I will try to express my thoughts on this issue. Let's immediately determine that the designation GRAU is not related to SAU, SU and SO. GRAU is an index system, And SAU, SU and SU are just abbreviations.

 

GRAU

2A... — guns, howitzers, salute installations
2B... — mortars, multiple rocket launchers
2V... — control and verification equipment
2G... — rocket refueling equipment
2I... — tools, devices
2K... — missile systems, guided weapons systems
2L... — carriages
2P... — rocket launchers
2S... — self-propelled artillery installations
2T... — transport equipment of missile systems
2U... — educational and training facilities
2F... — artillery transport equipment
2H... — means of fire training
2C... — mechanical sights
2SH... — covers, containers
2E... — power guidance drives
2YA... — boxes (containers)

 

The abbreviations SAU and SU appeared in the Second World War. I can assume that at first there were SU ("Samohodnaja Ustanovka" Self-propelled installations) - anti-tank guns firing direct fire mounted on such chassis. Then, when howitzers began to be installed on such equipment, they began to be called SAU ("Samohodnaja Artilleriiskaja Ustanovka" Self-propelled artillery installations).

 

I can't say anything about SO "Acacia". In the Russian-language Internet, it appears as a SAU.

From Russian words suitable for the letter "O" there is a "Orudie" cannon and an "Object" object. Objects are usually referred to as military equipment in the process of development and testing.

 

In addition, as mentioned above, there is a lot of confusion in the designations in the USSR and Russia. Indexes may overlap at different factories and in different equipment. Sometimes you don't have to think, but accept it as it is. 🙂

 

 

 

[KRK4m]

2 hours ago, Dmitriy1967 said:

From Russian words suitable for the letter "O" there is a "Orudie" cannon and an "Object" object. Objects are usually referred to as military equipment in the process of development and testing.

In addition, as mentioned above, there is a lot of confusion in the designations in the USSR and Russia. Indexes may overlap at different factories and in different equipment. Sometimes you don't have to think, but accept it as it is. 🙂

 

Once in my life, I came across in some Russian source an explanation of the SO-152 abbreviation as Samokhodnoye Orudye.

I am at such an age that, as a resident of Polskaya Narodnaya Ryespublika, I studied Russian for 12 years, which resulted in passing a C1 level state examination.

However I still don't understand why the regimental SPH is SAU and the divisional SPH is SO. But the most important thing is the last sentence of your statement, which I took the liberty of bolding. There is no point in thinking - you have to accept it as it is. You reminded me of the rules of my youth. Thanks, Dima 👏

Cheers

Michael