Creepy Pete Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Hello, I started working on a Tamiya Beaufighter the other week, and I bought some DK Decals for it. I was thinking of doing option No. 4 on the sheet, ND243, flown by Roy Butler with No. 46 squadron. I quite like the Temperate Sea Scheme with black undersides that the profile shows. But when I did some searching, I found some other profiles, showing the same plane in the MSG/Dark Green scheme, like this. Did DK make things up? Or do they know something, others didn't know before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denford Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Or was it repainted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Given the date quoted, the night fighter scheme of DG/MSG would be the production standard. The Night underside would normally indicate an Intruder role, but local requirements may have changed that. The Temperate Sea Scheme would not normally have appeared on a night fighter, so the question is in which role was 46 Sq employed at this time? In 1942 it was in use as a Coastal unit, but from the beginning of 1943 it returned to a night fighter role. So the question may be when ND243 was built? And how long had it been on the squadron? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 The new night fighter scheme of Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey with Medium Sea Grey under surfaces was ordered by HQ Fighter Command from 25 August 1942 and was mandatory with the exception of aircraft in the intruder role. There was a very brief period from 6 August 1942 when the scheme had been promulgated as Dark Green and Ocean Grey over Night with the proviso that the upper surface paint was to be "applied over an under-coating which is lighter than the present under-coating in use" but it was strongly objected to and quickly rescinded for the revised 25 August order which went to everyone including MAP. The 25 August order also specifically mentions Beaufighters being "flown in" to a contractor to begin the re-paints at the rate of one per day and that it would take "several months" before the Beaufighter re-paints were completed. It also states that all units holding night fighter aircraft (Mosquito, Boston, Havoc, Hurricane and Typhoon as well as Beaus) should commence the re-camouflaging immediately. On 18 October 1942 HQ Fighter Command further instructed that Night Fighter "Intruder" aircraft were to be finished in Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over smooth Night under surfaces. Therefore it seems unlikely that this particular aircraft would have been in Temperate Sea scheme with Night undersurfaces in 1943. It is possible that it was in Dark Green and Ocean Grey over Night before a re-paint but that would be dependent on the date of any photo. I'll post copies of these instructions on my blog - only because I can no longer post images here. There is a lot of preliminary documentation from early 1942 covering night fighter camouflage trials which I'll also post in due course. It has some surprises in it. Nick 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Pete Posted July 6, 2017 Author Share Posted July 6, 2017 Thanks guys. That's a bit of a bummer, as I quite liked the looks of the TSS with black. Not a huge fan of the DG/MSG scheme. Nick, you mentioned the Intruder role. Would that be what Roy Butler describes in his story here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Hi Just a random thought ... but why not contact DK and ask them they may have based it on a photo they have ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Posted the relevant night fighter docs at my blog this a.m. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 as posted http://46squadron.org/1944/10/warrant-officer-roy-butler/ looks very dark for DG/MSG... also, as they were mostly over sea, maybe TSS was used? In a rush, not read the linked page yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 Looks like Night painted over a camo scheme - and from that article:- "The moon was starting to rise and our all-black aircraft looked very menacing in the dim light." Which poses more questions about the DK scheme! Must have been a non standard scheme as DTD 360 Issue 2 of Nov 1943 required night fighters and intruders in overseas and desert areas to be finished as for home service. If they were engaged on coastal duties there were three schemes, standard and specials A & B, none of which required overall Night but scheme B was Extra Dark Sea Grey over Night. Nick 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Nick Millman said: Posted the relevant night fighter docs at my blog this a.m. Nick Hi Is there a link to the blog ? cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, brewerjerry said: Hi Is there a link to the blog ? cheers jerry In Nick's signature line, but you need an invite, and a gmail account to access. Drop Nick a PM for details is your best bet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 8, 2017 Share Posted July 8, 2017 8 hours ago, Troy Smith said: In Nick's signature line, but you need an invite, and a gmail account to access. Drop Nick a PM for details is your best bet. Hi I dont have a gmail, never mind cheers jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 9, 2017 Share Posted July 9, 2017 On 7 July 2017 at 6:20 PM, Troy Smith said: In Nick's signature line, but you need an invite, and a gmail account to access. Drop Nick a PM for details is your best bet. I don't think that is right. I have to sign in to administer the blog and I don't have a gmail account. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 9/7/2017 at 11:18, Nick Millman said: I don't think that is right. I have to sign in to administer the blog and I don't have a gmail account. Nick Hi Nick but as you use a google blog, you don't need gmail, you already have a google acount to use the blogger. If you don't have a google account of some kind, you can't access your blog, even with an invite, you invited me, and when I tried to view, that's what I got. Another thing I have not got around to doing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Troy Smith said: Hi Nick but as you use a google blog, you don't need gmail, you already have a google acount to use the blogger. If you don't have a google account of some kind, you can't access your blog, even with an invite, you invited me, and when I tried to view, that's what I got. Another thing I have not got around to doing..... We are talking at cross purposes. The blog is Google-hosted (unfortunately) so you have to sign in to Google to access it but you don't have to sign in with a gmail account. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 Got the ORB (AIR 27/460) for 46 Sqn. which ends in December 1943. The squadron had several detachements and operated as a night fighter unit equipped with Mk. VI with A.I Mk. VIII in Nile-delta area and as intruder units also equipped with Mk. VI but no radar. The intruder units also undertook convoy escort and armed recce during day time attacking targets of oportunity in the Agean. On 15 October 1943 the ORB states that the "latest night Beaufighters" were recived at Idku. The squadron C flight was also activated. ORB 25 October 1943: "Night Beaufighters comming through for B flight at base. A Flight Lakatamia closing down on night intruders during no-moon period - doing naval escorts and occasional strikes". So I think both schemes could be representative of a Mk. VI from the squadron. Bengt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) Hello Gentlemen, Regarding the issue of BLACK Beaus in the Mediterranean, please let me draw your attention to this footage from the IWM, depicting said aircraft in November 1944: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019783 Edited July 11, 2017 by Super Aereo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 1 hour ago, Super Aereo said: Hello Gentlemen, Regarding the issue of BLACK Beaus in the Mediterranean, please let me draw your attention to this footage from the IWM, depicting said aircraft in November 1944: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060019783 Excellent. But really it is Night. Even in the film a difference can be seen between the blue-black of the airframe and the cowling rim paint which was matt black. Prop hubs in flight colours too. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I wrote BLACK just to emphasize that those aircraft are not in the expected Night Fighter Scheme. That footage has been bugging me since the IWM digitized and uploaded it: was it an exception at Squadron level, borne out of necessity or individual initiative, or was there some order or amendment that authorised long range fighters employed in Intruder or anti-shipping missions in the Eastern Med to wear an all-Night scheme? Will we ever know..? Flavio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Super Aereo said: I wrote BLACK just to emphasize that those aircraft are not in the expected Night Fighter Scheme. That footage has been bugging me since the IWM digitized and uploaded it: was it an exception at Squadron level, borne out of necessity or individual initiative, or was there some order or amendment that authorised long range fighters employed in Intruder or anti-shipping missions in the Eastern Med to wear an all-Night scheme? Will we ever know..? Flavio Understood thanks. Much of the Middle East practice when it comes to camouflage finishes appears non standard and contrary to Air Ministry instructions and DTDs, even those which specifically refer to them. The amount of discretion exercised by HQ Middle East is uncertain but there are clues. For example a query about PRU colours for Spitfires operating in the Middle East was answered that aircraft would be delivered finished according to the current instructions but that on arrival in the Middle East "necessary camouflage instructions will be given to them". Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Pete Posted July 11, 2017 Author Share Posted July 11, 2017 This is becoming a very educational discussion. Thanks to all who joined in with your excellent information. From what I can see in that clip on the IWM website, at least some seemed to have some sort of camouflage, but it's kinda hard to see which colours they really are. I'm guessing Dark Green with Dark Sea Grey over Night? As suggested, I have sent DK an email, asking what they based their profile on. Let's see what they have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 There are photographs showing 46 Sqn Beaus with disruptive pattern upper surfaces and Night under surfaces in Egypt during the period late 1942 to early 1943. The upper surface colours have been variously interpreted as TSS and even Desert scheme. The Night under surfaces demarcation varies. Captions describe the aircraft as being engaged in night air defence of Egypt. Possibly DK Decals based their profile on those. Nick 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Pete Posted July 22, 2017 Author Share Posted July 22, 2017 Well, it's been 10 days, and no reply from DK Decals. Not that I really expected one. I guess I will go with Dark Green and Medium Sea Grey over Night then. Thanks all for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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