cynicaljohnny Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Were early WWII Luftwaffe primed/undercoated (Stuka, Me-109E, etc)?If so, what colour would have been used on exterior surfaces? Thanks in advance for any help..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Yes. Primer is always used. The only exception is late-war Japanese aircraft, because of the US submarine campaign on Japanese shipping, resulting in the severe cases of peeling and wear that can be seen in very late-war photos. (Before this Japanese painting had been very good, so don't attempt this on a Guadalcanal campaign Zero.) A common German primer colour was RLM 02, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was universal. Michael Uhlmann's work on Luftwaffe colours has some material on this, and so has Merrick's work for Classic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvel Onkey Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 I asked the very same question not so long ago- but the advice was that the lacquer based paint was likely to be sprayed onto bare metal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Actually the Luftwaffe paints were reformulated around 1940ish (I'll have to check Merrick & Kiroff) from primer and topcoat systems to lacquer paints to be applied on bare metal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Boak Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 Looking in Uhlmann, it describes the two-coat system as being one coat of lacquer 7102 (described as being Ikarol light metal primer green 201), followed by a coat of lacquer 7109 in the desired camouflage colour. The instructions were reissued in November 1941 for single-coats of lacquer 7122 in the desired colour. So the original request for early-war Ju87 and Bf109E would be covered by the two-coat system. I've not seen any description of the colour of the Ikarol primer. Later instructions simply say lacquer 7102.-, where the hyphen states that the colour is not specified. This presumably allows for the use of other suppliers than Ikarol, and the possibility of other shades. Given the high degree of control in the German industry at this time, and the severe pressures on imported materials, it may be that there were no other suppliers, or at least no other product that wasn't an Ikarol licence anyway. Other green primers I have seen used later in the UK industries run a far range of the green spectrum, but photos of German aircraft of this period, without top surface colour, seem to tend to a lighter shade rather than a darker one. My impression anyway: modeller's call, perhaps. The full set of instructions as reprinted (translated) in Uhlmann run to over 50 pages, with the wartime amendments. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted June 30, 2017 Share Posted June 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Graham Boak said: Looking in Uhlmann, it describes the two-coat system as being one coat of lacquer 7102 (described as being Ikarol light metal primer green 201), followed by a coat of lacquer 7109 in the desired camouflage colour. The instructions were reissued in November 1941 for single-coats of lacquer 7122 in the desired colour. So the original request for early-war Ju87 and Bf109E would be covered by the two-coat system. I've not seen any description of the colour of the Ikarol primer. Later instructions simply say lacquer 7102.-, where the hyphen states that the colour is not specified. This presumably allows for the use of other suppliers than Ikarol, and the possibility of other shades. Given the high degree of control in the German industry at this time, and the severe pressures on imported materials, it may be that there were no other suppliers, or at least no other product that wasn't an Ikarol licence anyway. Other green primers I have seen used later in the UK industries run a far range of the green spectrum, but photos of German aircraft of this period, without top surface colour, seem to tend to a lighter shade rather than a darker one. My impression anyway: modeller's call, perhaps. The full set of instructions as reprinted (translated) in Uhlmann run to over 50 pages, with the wartime amendments. "Ikarol" was a proprietary trade name of Warnecke and Bohm for its range of finished varnishes and constituents and they also supplied synthetic resin binders for use by other paint manufacturers under that trade name, e.g. Dr Kurt Herberts proprietary formula for the RLM 76 colour used a specialised W&B Ikarol resin binder '100 M' that from its formula undoubtedly ambered (the cobalt blue pigment used was produced in a variety of greenish blue shades and was mixed with zinc white which could be yellowish). However Gustav Roth's 7101.99, for example, was a light metal primer for aeroplanes described as "brown shade", and they also made "single coatings" for aircraft. In addition to primer coats fillers (putties) were used to improve the surface of the airframe before paints were applied. There were several other paint, coating and varnish manufacturers in Germany, in operation until the end of the war. Also pigments were being supplied to paint manufacturers from a large number of different suppliers. The tendency has been to presume from the limited surviving documentation or specific "finds" that the finishing processes were standard and consistent across the aircraft industry. They were not. Nick 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 (edited) Hi If i recall the research i saw correctly ? there was a primer for fabric surfaces that was a dull red colour cheers jerry Edited July 1, 2017 by brewerjerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Crandall Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 Interesting discussion. In the late 1930s Dr. Pomper head of Warnecke and Böhm paint company patented a resin based binder formula for aircraft camouflage paint. This was termed Ikoral and was designed to be applied directly to aluminum and magnesium in one coat without the need for a priming coat. It was so successful that other paint manufacturers were directed to use this Ikoral binder and pay Warnecke and Böhm a royalty. It was even supplied to some Italian companies that manufactured paint for the Luftwaffe, although it wasn't readily available to them. Dr. Pomper's patents, application and formulas can be found on pages 287 to page 296 in My book The Fw 190 Dora Vol. 2. The red-oxide primer for fabric and some wooden parts was labeled RLM 45. Cheers, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 3 hours ago, Jerry Crandall said: Interesting discussion. In the late 1930s Dr. Pomper head of Warnecke and Böhm paint company patented a resin based binder formula for aircraft camouflage paint. This was termed Ikoral and was designed to be applied directly to aluminum and magnesium in one coat without the need for a priming coat. It was so successful that other paint manufacturers were directed to use this Ikoral binder and pay Warnecke and Böhm a royalty. It was even supplied to some Italian companies that manufactured paint for the Luftwaffe, although it wasn't readily available to them. Dr. Pomper's patents, application and formulas can be found on pages 287 to page 296 in My book The Fw 190 Dora Vol. 2. The red-oxide primer for fabric and some wooden parts was labeled RLM 45. Cheers, Jerry As I have already mentioned in this thread 'Ikarol' was a trade name applied to more than one W & B product and there was more than one resin binder using that trade name, as well as other finishing products, e.g. W & B Ikarol resin binders No.600, No.200 and No. 100 M. And also as already stated those products were supplied to other paint manufacturers such as Dr Kurt Herberts & Co., of Wuppertal for use in their own paint formulae. "Kurt Herberts’ family had been involved with coatings for generations. His grandfather had founded a paint works in Barmen, Germany in 1866 and had passed it on to his sons in 1901. In 1927, Kurt took over the management and Herberts quickly became one of Germany’s leading paint manufacturers. Two particularly interesting projects are worth mentioning: Herberts supplied the paint for the famous Graf Zeppelin airship, and for the Do-X, the largest seaplane ever built." The paint formulae published in the Dora book are both interesting and useful however the formula for RLM 02 on page 292 appears to be missing a pigment. A mixture of only white and yellow pigments does not result in a grey! Hansa Yellow as mentioned is Pigment Yellow 1 in the Colour Index and was one of the first modern azo pigments discovered in Germany in 1909 and produced from 1911. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Crandall Posted July 1, 2017 Share Posted July 1, 2017 The original formula card can partially seen be seen in the background of page 293 of my book. By the way Nick, I know you are researching Japanese colors and have written a book as a result. Many years ago Don Thorpe gave me his original color samples of Japanese aircraft gathered from some islands in the South Pacific. If you are interested in seeing them Let me know. Cheers, Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Millman Posted July 2, 2017 Share Posted July 2, 2017 49 minutes ago, Jerry Crandall said: The original formula card can partially seen be seen in the background of page 293 of my book. Cheers, Jerry Yes, noted thanks, but even the original seems to be missing a pigment! I presume that 'Aluminium oak II' is probably a form of Quercitron (another bright yellow) but I cannot see any pigment there that would produce the grey of RLM 02 - they are all yellows and whites. Thanks for the offer re the Japanese samples. Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milos Gazdic Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 This is a very interesting discussion and I am sorry to bring it up again but I would like to ask if Gustav Roth's 7101.99 has anything to do with RLM 99 (which according to my knowledge didn't have any prescribed color to it... @Nick Millman, do you know which companies used Gustav Roth's 7101.99 primer and if it was used on military aircraft? Thank you in advance Milos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolls-Royce Posted January 30, 2020 Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Milos Gazdic said: This is a very interesting discussion and I am sorry to bring it up again but I would like to ask if Gustav Roth's 7101.99 has anything to do with RLM 99 (which according to my knowledge didn't have any prescribed color to it... @Nick Millman, do you know which companies used Gustav Roth's 7101.99 primer and if it was used on military aircraft? Thank you in advance Milos Milos, in a recent thread, someone posted that Nick hadn't been active here in quite some time. You can email him at his blog, aviationofjapan.com. He does answer, either on the blog or directly. And he has covered a Luftwaffe topic or two there even though that isn't his primary focus. Edited January 30, 2020 by Rolls-Royce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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